Last week we got into vaccination policies and how you can approach that or not. This week we follow up on some of the great conversations from the Bureau Slack Channels on the same topic.
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Carl: Gene, we need a little humor coming into this episode, but what I said was inappropriate to ask you if you're ready for that in front of everyone.
Gene: I'm always ready.
Carl: I know.
Gene: All right.
Carl: I call you go-time daddy.
Gene: Go-time.
Carl: All right. Let's get right in.
Gene: There's your humor.
Carl: All right. Let's get right into this episode. So last week we talked about workplace policies, specifically around COVID, vaccinations, masks, that sort of stuff. And I was really excited to see in the channels, I'm not going to share names because I don't have permission from anyone, but I did see back in the bureau slack channels ... by the way, if you're not a member of consider bureau membership ... somebody said, Hey, I listened to episode. It was awesome. I did notice one thing. Workplace safety seemed to not be mentioned and the way that they put it, I just want to make sure I'm true to what they said. One point that seems to be missing from the discussion about vaccines and teams and conflict management is workplace safety. We have an obligation to provide a safe workplace for our employees and I can make a pretty good argument that this obligation needs to include a COVID vaccine mandate and/or office policy. Now, Gene, you know this industry is liberal, right? Wouldn't you say? I mean, for the most part, it definitely skews more to the left, than the country as a whole.
Gene: Sure. You would know better than I, I think, but my gut tells me yeah. I would say, and this is going to sound like I'm picking a side.
Carl: Like you're flippy flopping.
Gene: No, I'm not flipping.
Carl: Hemming and hawing?
Gene: I would say based on the stuff that we do for a living, our people in our industry are going to fall more towards the science-based thinking first, and not necessarily emotional- based thinking. And I say that because neither one is necessarily right nor wrong, but ... So, I don't know what liberal ... necessarily fits, but I would go the direction of math and science brains.
Carl: Well, and I'm even going to say that the way you just separated it, probably isn't kosher.
Gene: Probably not.
Carl: Right. Because you said science or emotional.
Gene: Right. I had trouble. I didn't know what other word to use.
Carl: No, I'm with you. But, what I would say is it's this really weird switch to me between people who are ... we're going to get in it. We're going to catch some hell for this one.
Gene: I don't mind.
Carl: People who are human rights activists, who really believe that everyone deserves the best shot, a totally fair approach to life ... I mean, when we start talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, we start talking about just making sure that we're accepting of all people, that is the community. Now, what becomes interesting in this sense, in this specific case, is you can talk about, as is the main argument that came out and was rebutted in a way and we'll get into that, and the way that I lean, just to get that out there, that the responsibility is to take care of everyone.
Carl: We get back to Spock the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. But it is that we have to put in practice things that are going to protect everyone. And that means asking individuals to do things.
Carl: Now, the other side of the argument is individuals have the right to choose what they do and don't do, which gets into a slippery slope for a lot of things the group who's coming out saying, you can't do vaccines, you can't do masks, there are other choice things that they would go against. So it becomes this really interesting thing. And we're not going to get into that, but in this, I want to go ahead and just talk through some of the arguments that were made and also want to thank both people who involve, multiple people got in the conversation, but they were very respectful. And I think this is just a-
Gene: Yeah, we need more of that in the world.
Carl: Right. And they were saying, look, I'm pretty upset. But the first thing I just want to get in here, and it was the person who had basically said, Hey, I listened to episode. I did notice that you didn't talk about this.
Carl: So as an employer, we have to find a safe workplace. If we do dumb things like put in a rug that's a huge tripping hazard or something, we could get sued by the person who trips falls and breaks their leg. That's true. You go anywhere, that's why there's those big, slippery floor, all that kind of stuff. It seems like not much of a logical leap to say that allowing unvaccinated employees in a workplace endangers everyone around them, in the workplace, coworkers, clients, guests, et cetera. So if you set up a workspace for me, I show up to work and get exposed to COVID via the unvaxed co-worker, now I have a claim against you for endangering me. If you require vaccines for work in shared spaces and I still pick up COVID, presumably my immune system sucks in this scenario. You've done what you could, so I have less of a claim.
Carl: Now, interestingly, and again, I don't have permission to share this, one of the people who applauded this statement is a lawyer. So I'm going to say that gives a little credibility, even though I can't share more than that. So it was this kind of like, Hey, if I am permitting an unsafe workplace, so the question becomes, is it safe or not? So what do you think on this as the premise for where we're starting here?
Gene: Well, I appreciate the person who pointed out the workplace safety. I didn't consider that at all, an unvaccinated person creating an unsafe environment. I mean, it seems kind of obvious now that it was mentioned. I don't know, man. I'm still torn on it because when I hear that my gut just turns inside out. You mentioned a rug and someone trips over the rug, and then they sue me as the business owner for putting the rug down. That whole scenario makes me insane. Not because I would be the business owner that would get sued, but that anyone would get sued over an accident. It just drives me insane. You know what I mean? I don't know where I'm coming from that. And I know that's a metaphor for having COVID and spreading it. They're not the same thing.
Carl: The COVID really held the room together. Let's get big Lebowski on this.
Gene: But that's kind of where my gut goes on. It's like, I don't know where I fall in the spectrum of liberal and not liberal in that. The idea of someone getting sick from a disease like that, and then suing the employer makes me a little bit crazy.
Carl: And I want to say real quick, I think there's a lot of gray lines here that cross over any concept of labeling a belief or an approach liberal or conservative.
Gene: I just said that because-
Carl: No, no, no. I was the one. I framed it that way at the beginning. So I was correcting myself.
Gene: Responding to your frame and-
Carl: Yeah, I'm a great framer.
Gene: You are.
Carl: I really am. You should see some of the things that I've hung up. Actually, I've hung myself up a lot. I'm hung up right now.
Carl: But thinking this through, I also want to share that not everybody is in a state ... Hey, I'm in Florida.
Gene: I'm in South Carolina.
Carl: Not everybody's in a state where you're allowed to sue people. You can sue them for tripping over the rug here. We'll give you that one. We're not going to let you sue them for getting COVID. We will possibly sue you if you make them wear a mask. So we're a different state over here. But I want to now share-
Gene: You can't just pick on Florida though. There's a lot of states that fall-
Carl: There's a lot of states. I saw the other day, and I apologize to my Texas friends, this made me laugh so hard.
Gene: Yeah, I don't know what's going on in Texas.
Carl: The one star is not a logo. It's a review. So I thought that is one of the best things I've ever seen.
Gene: You can make that joke, my friend, because you are Florida man.
Carl: I am Florida man.
Gene: You can get away with it.
Carl: I catch more hell than any of you. In fact, when you see something horrible that happens in another state, they never say California, man. Shit's happening in California all the time. Shit's happening in Philly. Shit's happening in Idaho. It's just nobody's paying attention.
Carl: So now let's see what basically the rebuttal was to saying that you should do this for work workplace safety. Vaccinated people statistically are extremely safe from the virus. That being true, why would vaccine staff be concerned about being around unvaccinated people?
Gene: There you go.
Carl: Let's start with that. I will say, and I made this, I kind of stayed out of it, but I did get in with one thing, which is okay, people wearing seatbelts in a car are protected more if you get in an accident than somebody's not wearing a seatbelt, but if I'm driving the car, if I'm running the business, if I'm driving the car, I'm going to want you to wear that seatbelt or find an alternative mode of transportation.
Gene: Probably.
Carl: Because I don't want to be responsible for you getting sick and people who have been vaccinated can still carry the virus. And as we've seen with Delta variant, there are breakthrough cases. So anyway, that's one thing.
Carl: Now this is another. I can't imagine a situation where I would force anyone working with me to take any kind of medication and another person who chimed in later said, would you make your staff take the flu vaccine?
Gene: The flu shot, yeah.
Carl: The flu shot. Now the conversation kind of died off at that point, and I think nobody wanted to stoke it when that came in. But I think that's another thing. And I'm somebody who never took the flu shot. I never got the flu. My doctor asked me to take it finally so I wouldn't be clogging up the system if I got it. But there's a lot of differences between a flu vaccine and a COVID vaccine. And there's a lot of differences making somebody take medication. So this kind of stalls me a little.
Gene: Keep going. I want to make sure you see that through.
Carl: Hmm. It's one of those things where I guess I would say I'm not forcing somebody to take the medicine. I'm just saying, if you want to work here. So it's like with the bureau, right?
Gene: But you can't do that. You can't discriminate against someone because of it, right?
Carl: Well, that's it.
Gene: So I mean, it becomes a different issue.
Carl: It does become a different issue.
Gene: For me, anytime either side, and not just COVID, anything, when you begin to approach this position where you have all the answers, you have it all figured out and it's your way or the highway, I have a fundamental problem with that.
Carl: Oh yeah.
Gene: And in this case, we're talking about COVID right. We're talking about COVID vaccine and I guess specifically talking about COVID vaccine. To me, it's so what, you take the vaccine apparently you can still get it. So I start going down the slippery slope and it's the same with my kids who go to school, which is my kids are both vaccinated and they have a mask policy at school, and it's why the hell are we still going to school? I get to the point where I don't really know. I don't know. I'm not saying they shouldn't go to school or they should go, whatever. I'm just saying, I don't know.
Carl: I love that Florida and South Carolina are the ones leading this discussion right now. No, I know what you mean.
Gene: We're not the only states where kids are going to school.
Carl: No, no, but in our state, the courts overturned it so that now we cannot require masks in school.
Gene: Yeah. They're not required in our school either, but all the kids are wearing them.
Carl: Well, that's great. I hope that what I would consider common sense will prevail.
Gene: I don't know if it's a district thing or what, but they're all wearing them. But my fundamental point is that I don't know. I don't have the answers. Hell, the medical professionals and scientists don't have all the answers. That's obvious. I mean, I know that vaccines work. I get it, masks work. But I don't know. You can't come from this point of having absolute answers on any of it.
Carl: It's just what's the best choice.
Gene: Exactly.
Carl: Do I want to jump off this cliff or do I maybe want to walk down the road a little further?
Gene: I'm all for walking down the road a little further.
Carl: I'm all for walking down the road a little further too.
Gene: Either side of that, if you go too far and you're like, everyone that works here has to do this, some people might leave, and you have to be okay with that.
Carl: And you do.
Gene: Are you? And I see the other slack channels full of people that they can't find anyone to do the work.
Carl: It's true.
Gene: What do you do?
Carl: Well, now here's the other thing. So Nick from Promethean put in the channels some research that showed [crosstalk 00:15:35] over 50%, and it wasn't a lot over, maybe it was like 53%, 54%, but preferred a workplace where everyone has been vaccinated. So it's tight though. For me, I would have thought that number would be higher, but I want to get back to the argument about not mandating vaccines because I think it's important to see what else this person has to say.
Gene: Yes, yes.
Carl: I still encourage others to get the vaccine. I've been vaccinated myself, even though I already had COVID. I got vaccinated primarily to encourage a few others around me who were high risk, but hesitant and it worked. I get the premise of workspace safety. I just don't agree with it. I'm not going to force anyone around me except my kids to take medication of any kind. Everyone is and should be entitled to run their business the way they see fit. If the government wants to force the vaccine, they should do so themselves without making businesses the VAX police.
Gene: I agree with that.
Carl: Then let the courts and democracy decide if that is acceptable. I agree with it. I don't agree. I'm totally conflicted because the one thing I used to always tell my team when they would have something they wanted to do and I wasn't sure, is I don't want to work at a place that would do that, and that creates a problem because I own the place.
Gene: Yeah. Right.
Carl: To this person's point, everyone is entitled to run their business the way they see fit and if they have fallout, then they have fallout. If you get sued for requiring somebody to get a vaccine or not get a vaccine, if you lose people because you required the vaccine or if you lose people because you don't, because you have people that are like, why are you not making everyone take care of themselves?
Gene: You might.
Carl: This is not a simple conversation. It is not cut and dry. But I think perhaps the thing that came out at the end, and this was the person who made the initial argument for workplace safety, the new OSHA regulation is vaccine or mandatory weekly testing. It is technically not a vaccine mandate.
Gene: It still feels like one.
Carl: But it's totally not, because you're not asking somebody to inject something into their body.
Gene: They don't have to. That's right.
Carl: You're now saying we just need to verify every week before you come in. Now this is going to increase costs. This is going to increase logistics. This is going to mean somebody has to be willing to do it. Now, the thing is, there are the tests that you take home now, the CVS test and that sort of ... and it's not like it's a crazy expense or that sort of thing. But now this gets to that discussion. Because what you're doing now, and this is what we were instructed in terms of bureau events, is you have to provide, or maybe it's strongly advised that you provide, now I'm the lawyer, it's strongly advised. And I am most definitely not a lawyer.
Gene: You heard it, he said he was a lawyer.
Carl: Yeah. And then once again, I have confessed to being a liar. But you have to have an alternative to being vaccinated.
Gene: What does that mean in your case? Does that mean like video?
Carl: It means video.
Gene: Okay.
Carl: Yeah. So the odds of somebody spending the money it takes to come to a camp without going to the camp, giving that a lot of that cost is the venue, the food, the stuff and participating online, it's probably not going to happen. But if somebody wanted to, we would allow it. And in fact, we've already talked about this in the past because we've had people with different abilities. They've been able to participate in different things. That's why I love the idea of walkshops, which is something that a good friend of mine Jesse had come up with where you're constantly on the go. We've had a lot of people who weren't able to walk on a trail in the woods so we've always had ways that we're looking and the ability, obviously it's not that difficult, to do the video option. But when we're looking at work, it could be work from home, it could be mandatory weekly testing, but then it gets into the other part of this conversation, which is clients.
Gene: That's where my brain was going, because I was the one last week that said, for me, it comes down to leadership and just taking ownership of the situation and talking to everybody. Yeah. That's easy when it's an employee. Easy enough because you can talk to them. I mean, you can at least talk to them. What about a client?
Carl: Yeah. And one of the things that came up, and I can't remember exactly who said it, but they said if the client has a policy at least as strict as ours.
Gene: But how do you know that?
Carl: How do you know they're enforcing it? That's the thing. And this is part of what I got into last week, and I'm surprised I didn't get ripped to shreds in saying that I think people will enforce it until they're struggling to make payroll, until it impacts something like that.
Gene: No, I agree.
Carl: But it's a good point. How do you know for sure? Are you going to test clients when they come in? Are you only going to have remote meetings? Because you will lose some clients. There are clients who want to be in the space. There are clients who want to meet with you in person.
Gene: Well, there are clients that philosophically disagree with you or whatever word you want to use, but they'll just disagree completely and want to disregard what your points are. And are you going to work with them still? That's more of an ethical question in general. We work in a design-first industry anyway. God knows designers have done stuff that's not ethical for years.
Carl: And I'm not a designer either. I just want to share that.
Gene: You worked at an agency, son, you know [crosstalk 00:22:16].
Carl: I set one up. I was a halfway home for misfit designers and I acknowledge it.
Carl: This takes our conversation off a little.
Gene: It does, and I apologize.
Carl: But I think there's relevance there. We're always going to work with people who have different beliefs than us. We are going to work with clients that have different beliefs than us. Now, the beliefs that we see, we can choose, do we work with this person or not? I will tell you right now when we were running Engine, there were a lot of people we were not going to work with. We got offered an opportunity for a, I think it was like 1.3, $1.4 million project with the handgun manufacturer. We said no.
Gene: Right. And a lot of people, they won't have a problem with that.
Carl: Well, but here's where it gets weird. I would have taken a beer or a liquor in a heartbeat, but I would not have touched cigarettes.
Gene: I think most of us would be in that same boat.
Carl: It's a weird place that you draw that line. Tourism to certain places. You may have all kinds of different things that you personally have a problem with. I lost a cousin in his early twenties to smoking cigarettes. I fundamentally have a problem just as I'm wired with handguns. My kids lost somebody in sixth grade because somebody found a gun, a little kid found a gun and shot his sister and that was friends of my kids. I'll never forget having to explain to them what happened. And not to shift this over to that conversation, but I don't think we should have handguns at work. It's one of those things.
Gene: Isn't it weird though? This is part of me not knowing. I don't understand and I don't have answers. Isn't it weird that we're talking about COVID and taking a vaccine and it's similar to gun violence, in terms of how we feel about things and discussions we have to have. I mean, it's just weird.
Carl: It takes us into these. I think the reason for me that it comes over there is because of the, "do I want to work at a place that would."
Gene: Yeah, it's weird.
Carl: It is. And as owners of companies, we started them with a mindset and people were attracted to what we were building and that's why they wanted to work there.
Gene: That's right.
Carl: Part of the reason I think why so many people are on the sidelines right now, instead of coming back to working at webshops is because they realize they have a choice to work somewhere or on their own that may feel better. Some of it's about money. But we all, I think, believe that money is only one of those criteria that comes into play when you're not happy. If you're working somewhere and you're feeling great and you love the work you're doing, you're feeling challenged, but successful and you're growing and all of that stuff, you're getting up and you're excited and you're ready to go. If you go in and somebody's beating the shit out of you for something barely even touch, then you're going, "Am I getting paid enough to put up with this shit?"
Carl: So again, trying to circle back here, I don't think there's an answer here. I think it's going to be run your company the way that you think your company should be run. Realize that we know, at least in the United States of America, which is a funny thing to call us, there are going to be people who have different beliefs on each side and different levels of those beliefs. I don't think there's any way that we can come up with a solution that is going to be, this is how you do it. And that's part of what you were saying at the beginning.
Carl: Anytime somebody, what I call from the mountain, anybody comes down from the damn mountain and says, this is the answer, then that is obviously not the answer. [crosstalk 00:26:43] It may be an answer. And that's the thing. When you decide how you want to run your company within the limitations of the laws of the state that you live in, the people who want to work with you are going to choose to work with you and the people who don't, are going to move on. And as long as you didn't discriminate against them, as long as you didn't force them out, as the NFL Players Association jumped up really quick, did you see how fast they came in when people said vaccination status was part of it? The Jags were at the front of that one. We can make headlines.
Gene: [inaudible 00:27:17].
Carl: But the thing that was interesting was they made the availability argument. We put a lot of this on availability. If we can get rid of somebody who's injured without an issue, then shouldn't we be able to let go of somebody who's jumping motorcycles on the weekends. So now I'm all the way back around to that. But I don't know, Gene. If I were to hot take this thing, which this is a hot topic, it's going to be what allows the owner to sleep at night. It's going to be what their fundamental truths are, what they ultimately believe and the people who follow them, because they are going to be a leader, are going to be the people who believe what they believe or believe in the work they're doing to a point where they're like, okay, or they're going to go.
Carl: That may create more of a divided industry. I don't think so, but it definitely, for me personally, I'm glad we have this diversity of opinion in the community. I'm glad that this conversation happened. I appreciate the people who were involved and it's made me smarter and made me think more about what really matters.
Gene: Yeah. Solid. Don't run from it.
Carl: Lean in, baby. All right, Gene.
Gene: Yeah, man.
Carl: Look at us, Florida and South Carolina leading the discussion.
Gene: You guys are screwed.
Carl: Bye everybody.
