It's pretty obvious we're in unchartered territory here. As the pandemic continues to make headlines, we're staying focused on what comes next. For many of us, that involves growing the team and getting back to the office. Which explains why the Bureau Slack has been very chatty regarding vaccination policies. Read on for info on what to consider plus links to articles and resources that can help. And before you put any policy in place, have your legal team look it over. This stuff is tricky.
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Carl: Gene, you were dancing this time and I wasn't. I was, and then I stopped. I have to do something right now. Okay? I have to let everybody know about a new sponsor. Unfortunately, I haven't updated you so we don't have it, but it's Punch List.
Gene: Nice sponsor.
Carl: Punch List. And it is an amazing product that lets you actually mark up live websites so clients can give you feedback. You can see exactly what they're talking about. You don't have to do PBFs and all that kind of nonsense. It is a good friend of ours, Pete Bernardo, who basically launched that bad boy. And yeah, so they are officially a sponsor. Welcome, Punch List. Check them out. We'll definitely link it up somewhere. I'm sorry, we didn't have it in the intro.
Gene: We'll put it on the next one.
Carl: Yeah, we will. All right. Great. Thanks, Gene.
Gene: What you got for this [crosstalk 00:02:00]
Carl: I was going to ask you if you thought we needed to have a vaccination policy for the podcast. Why is that so funny?
Gene: Well, I mean, I'm vaccinated against COVID.
Carl: I'm double vaxed.
Gene: So, there you go.
Carl: Yeah, but, Gene, is that enough?
Gene: What more could we ask for?
Carl: Should we wear cozies as masks?
Gene: Over the digital transmission of COVID?
Carl: Well, don't tempt the damn thing.
Gene: Yeah, it might.
Carl: It could figure it out. That virus is pretty smart. No, we had... there's a lot of conversations have been going on and a lot of people talking about vaccination policies and it's just really intricate.
Gene: It is, isn't it?
Carl: Well, I mean, so it's one thing to make sure people coming into the office are vaccinated.
Gene: Right.
Carl: But how do you do that? Do you trust them? Do you ask them? They say they are, you say, "Okay." Do you ask them to show you their vaccination card? If they're not vaccinated, do you make them get vaccinated?
Gene: I'm not entirely sure. I feel like we could have given ourselves too many rules sometimes.
Carl: I see what you're saying here. We should Outback Steakhouse this thing.
Gene: It's a sticky subject because I wonder how hard it is just to have a conversation with your employees. And I know you might have a lot of employees, but, oh well.
Carl: Well, and here's the thing. A lot of these employees are new. You think about how much turnover there's been. Now people are able to start hiring, we are seeing some people get the talent they were looking for. But now you're putting in a new policy with new people, and let's face facts. This industry is extremely liberal, right?
Gene: Right.
Carl: Which means we really care about the health of everybody, and we really care about everybody's ability to make their own decisions. And so it's not that we're at an impasse, it's that we just have to be very careful about how we do this. And so these are the conversations that I saw going on. I saw conversations on both sides, opinions on both sides. But it's really about, to me, how are you going to maintain this going forward? Because, is this a policy just during certain times?
Carl: Like if there's a high threat level, is that when you do this? And then there's that question what about customers? If you have clients that are coming in, they have to adhere to the same policy. What about remote workers who may come into the office now and then? What about on a retreat? So this is really where it just starts to get-
Gene: It's confusing.
Carl: Kind of hairy, right?
Gene: Yeah. I'm not speaking for everybody, but I think-
Carl: Good because they didn't give you permission.
Gene: I think that a lot of times...
Carl: Who do you think you are?
Gene: We have policies in place of actual leadership. When sometimes, in this case in particular, it just calls for good leadership from the top, that person communicating with everyone and making decisions for the best case of everybody involved instead of just having a blanket policy, because that's what the government tries to do and we see that it just doesn't work. You can policy yourself into not actually making anything happen. You can't hide behind it.
Carl: It's one thing to have a policy. It's another thing to enforce it.
Gene: Well, that too. What happens if somebody breaks the policy? You just got this new employee and you really need them and they break the policy because they have a religious view or they have a political view, whatever.
Carl: Or medical.
Gene: Whatever. Are you going to fire them?
Carl: I think religious and medical are the two right now.
Gene: Whatever, but are you just going to fire them? You can't. I mean, you just got them.
Carl: Well that's it, right? I think this whole episode is going to be a hot take.
Gene: Maybe.
Carl: Because really when I think about it, it's like, okay, you've got a policy, are you going to enforce it? Because when it comes down to it, if it's a client who says they're not going to adhere to your policy, maybe they are vaccinated. Maybe they're double vaxed, maybe they're double vaccinated and they got COVID. Maybe they're the ultimate in terms of immunity right now and they're like, "Hmm, if you're asking me to show them immunity, no I'm not going to do that." So maybe they don't come into the office. But I think what happens though is, once it starts brushing up against money, and I welcome everybody to just dispute the living hell out of this and tell me that I'm wrong, but when you start to struggle with payroll, that is going to grab your focus.
Carl: I don't care, liberal, conservative, independent, bleeding heart independent like me, whatever you might be, you're going to care about your people. You're going to care about making sure everybody's safe, but you're going to make sure everybody's paid. Because you know what, the day you miss a payroll, the day that something's happened because of a policy, you're just going to... With the best of intentions, not as a horrible human, who's like, "I'm greedy. I want the money. I don't care about people." It's not that at all. It is, "I need to pay my people. They need to be able to pay their mortgages. They need to take care of their families.2
Gene: We have to have a viable business. Otherwise, what's the point of a policy?
Carl: And as soon as it starts to be at a level where talent leaves or clients get frustrated or whatever, and maybe I'm totally wrong, I hope I'm totally wrong. But, I think some of the policies I've heard that people are looking at, not just within the Bureau, but overall, I don't know how they're going to enforce them.
Gene: Right. I don't know how you enforce that stuff either. Yeah, it sucks. It doesn't make sense to me medically, scientifically, whatever, to say that it's a personal preference because it honestly shouldn't be. Let's be real, that's goofy, right? But, for a lot of people, it is. Yeah, how do you enforce that? How do you enforce policies anyway? Let's say you have a dress code policy, right? You still show leadership because you still have to pull that person aside and say, "Hey, this is not how we do this here. You know, you need to be aware of this." I've never heard stories of, then what happens if they do it again? What do you do?
Carl: Well, I love the door you just opened because I have a dress code policy for a completely remote team. So maybe it's even more emphatic when you're remote, but I will never forget-
Gene: You have to wear a shirt?
Carl: We had an employee at Engine, and I will not shame this individual, but I will just say that they had started getting into shape. They were really proud of how they looked. And we're on a team call, and their camera is only showing their shoulders up. Only showing their shoulders up. And you see other people on the call going... literally trying to see if there's some way, and then sure as shit, got a knock on the door. And before we know it, we have got full nip in the camera. And it was one of these things where right after the call, there were seven other people on the call and at least four of them said, "What the fuck was that?" And I was like, "That's CrossFit folks." He was looking good.
Gene: That's why you do it. You look good naked.
Carl: Yeah, and so, did I suddenly have a policy that I enforced across the company? Or did I talk to that person and say, "Hey, even a tank top, man. Something." But it was one of those things where it's like... That is, and I'm not saying that I was a great leader in that moment or else when that person sat back down, I would have been like, "Hey, turn your camera off." Instead, I was just like a stunned mullet. I was like-
Gene: You were like everybody else. "What do I do?"
Carl: Right, exactly. And when you're trying to lead in a way that feels not authoritarian, but sometimes people want you to be in charge. Sometimes people... I learned that. I had some people sitting me down and saying, "Hey, you are the boss. So I know that you don't want to be the boss. You don't like the word boss."
Gene: "But that's your job."
Carl: "Fucking do the job." But that was a conversation that we had and it never happened again. And so that becomes a thing. Common sense is no longer reality. We don't all share the same common sense. People who may be new to your team, you don't know them. So whatever you do with these policies, realize that when you have somebody that starts, and a week later, they find out about a policy, I think any policy like this from a vaccination needs to be something that people understand before they take the job.
Carl: And if people are weighing what you're offering and what somebody else is offering, and you don't know that they're going to come at them and say, "By the way, we need to know that you are double vaccinated. We need to know, we need to see your immunization card." If you come at it from that really strict point, you might not get that person on the team. Group health is the most... I mean, the health of the planet is the most important thing. But if you can't survive as a company, you may not even intentionally do it. As soon as the phone rings and somebody is upset about something that does not involve this, you are going to make a move onto that thing. And then you have to ask yourself, well, if I'm not enforcing the policy, who is?
Gene: Nobody. It comes down to ownership, man. And that's what I think a lot of times... Maybe that's what I was getting at. Leadership, yeah. But I mean, leadership starts with ownership, right? So it's the fact that you can't have... The policy can't be the thing that has the ownership over the situation. It feels good to be like, "Well, we've got it written down. So in the case of a problem, we'll just refer to the rules." And this isn't like Monopoly, you know what I mean? You have to take ownership of it. Jocko-
Carl: Who plays by the rules with Monopoly anyway?
Gene: Exactly. Even that. That's interpretable. I mean, do you collect the money every time you pass Go?
Carl: Do I play for more than 10 minutes before I go, "Seriously? I'd rather read a book."
Gene: I know, but Jocko Willink talks about this on his show a lot. He talks about like, at the top level, like the SEALs, the SEAL teams, they have this policy, again, policy, but they have this rule where everything has to be discussed. They make sure that we're on the same page. If there's an instance where they're like, "Well, I know that you're going to do this, so I don't need to talk about it. I'll just assume you're going to do it." Well then if the other person is thinking, "Well, I know he's responsible for it. So I'll just assume he's responsible for it. And he's going to do it." Well, then you show up, and guess what? Nobody's doing it.
Carl: Nobody's doing it because everybody thinks somebody else is going to take care of it. And I think that's absolutely right.
Gene: That's right. And he used the example of going out in the wilderness and bringing food. And if he's like, "Well, I'll just bring enough food." If you're responsible, you're supposed to bring your food and a little bit extra. And if you just go, "Well, they'll all bring their food and a little bit extra. So I'll bring mine." And then the other guy is thinking the same thing, but you never talk, well, then you could go out there and no one is going to have any food. You're just going to have enough for yourself. Right. So you definitely have to make sure, don't let it be unsaid. Actually take ownership of it and talk about these things. How do you feel about being vaccinated? You know what I mean? Have you had that conversation one-on-one with everybody or small groups or whatever, no matter how big you are? Do you even know? Are you just assuming?
Carl: So now you opened up a whole nother door. You are opening doors today, sir. And also talking a lot about food. Are you okay?
Gene: I'm hungry.
Carl: Yeah. I am too. And your shirt suddenly looks like a piece of pizza, so I'm like, that's going on. Don't make that sound. I apologize everybody. Oh yeah, there we go.
Gene: [crosstalk 00:15:20].
Carl: This isn't good. No, but... The culture side.
Gene: There you go.
Carl: And let's say you do include people in the conversation. Now you've got people who just joined the team more than likely, and it could be a decent number of people, but then you've also got people who've decided to stay, who've been there for a while. And if the people who have been there for a while have a difference of opinion from the people who are new, or if the people who are new or just like, "I feel like I'm supposed to say something."
Gene: Right. And they don't know what to do.
Carl: "I don't know what to say." They don't really know the culture. They've only been there for a little while, then yeah, I mean, you're going to get into this situation where now culturally, you have to ask yourself. But I think if we're really looking at this, at doing a policy, I think the first thing you have to do is say why, right? What is the goal of this policy? Is it to, and I mean this with again, the most sincerest of hearts, is it to protect the team in a health way, right? Is it to protect the company? Is it so it looks good?
Gene: Is it CYA?
Carl: Is it? And is it, I don't want to say marketing, but is it a sense of, "This is who we are, so this is what we would do. So this is what we need to share." I guarantee you, there are going to be blog posts that come out where people talk about how they're handling their vaccination policy. And I think that's great because I think everybody can learn together. But just putting that blog post out there shows that this is a differentiator for you. Let's talk about the NFL. This was interesting to me. When Kim Newton gets released from the Patriots and suddenly it's this big conversation where he said he wouldn't get vaccinated. And they're like, "Oh, well is that a threat to the team? Is he on the waiver wire now because he won't get vaccinated?" And then somebody said, "Wow, take a look at the waiver wire. That's a high percentage of unvaccinated players that say they won't get vaccinated."
Carl: So then you have that question. Okay. I mean, we obviously don't have a waiver wire in building websites. Maybe one day we will.
Gene: We could, yeah.
Carl: It would be nice versus the just hiring each other's people. But, I think there's something there where it'll be interesting to see in two weeks, if some of those stars haven't gotten vaccinated, will the teams go, "Winning is more important," or will the players go, "Playing is more important." It's a little bit of a standoff. So, who is going to do it first? Right. Are you going to just... Because the NFL doesn't really... I mean, they have a policy about getting tested.
Gene: And if you have it. Yeah.
Carl: I think if you just have a policy where... Okay, the most relaxed policy is, "Are you? Okay." The second most is, "We're going to give you a test if you can't show the card. If you don't show the card and you don't want to get vaccinated, that's cool. We just need to give you a test every time." And then you have to ask, who's going to give the test? Who at your company is going to sit at the front desk and stick that swab up somebody's nose. That's gross. Right. I apologize. But when they came up with the test, couldn't they have done something a little nicer? Science... Come on, science, you got this. Excuse me
Gene: It's going to be gross, no matter what they do.
Carl: But that's the thing. Right? What is the experience going to be like? Who's going to be responsible for it and will you keep doing it?
Gene: Again, it comes down, in my opinion, to ownership of the issue. It comes down to, are you actually, if you're the person who's taking ownership of this, what's your mission? Is it, like you say, to protect the team? If it's to protect, like in the NFL, if it's to protect the team and win, then yeah. You want to make sure everyone's vaccinated. You're still doing tests every once in a while, because it's a very physical thing. They have to touch each other and [crosstalk 00:19:34].
Carl: And variants and stuff.
Gene: Yes. All that stuff. If your mission is to win a Super Bowl, you should be doing all the stuff possible, to make sure everybody-
Carl: I'm probably not running a web shop too. If you're trying to win the Super Bowl.
Gene: Putting that all aside, yeah.
Carl: You're not going to do it, running your own shop.
Gene: Or even in a web shop. I mean, if the mission is just to make sure you're covered, so everybody else shuts up about it, that's a different mission.
Carl: I mean, that's the thing. And how does this play against your core values? You have to look at all these things. Now, granted the rules changed when COVID hit. So your core values may change as well. And you may have to change the way that you weight them. Right? When we had our core values, I don't remember any of them being more important than any others. We just said, if we hit a certain number of our core values, that's a decision we could make. That's a thing we could do. But man, it's this other thing where if your core value is about individual choice, and then you're going to... I mean, that's not a core value, right? But you know what I'm saying? It's about independence.
Carl: It's about everybody making their own contribution. If suddenly making sure everybody does the same policy, which by the way, I probably would've leaned toward that side. Now we were remote. So that brings up another discussion, but we would have had a retreat. Right?
Gene: Right.
Carl: At some point we would have been together, but the thing becomes, am I treating people differently now, if they say they don't want to do it, but they're a really strong player on the team, on the web team, back from the NFL. But if I do that, then we have these legal things we have to look out for too. Because if you treat people differently based on their vaccination status, that can be considered discrimination.
Gene: Can it?
Carl: It can. Yeah. Like if, for example, at the retreat...
Gene: I got you. I got you.
Carl: Now you have to give them an alternative way to attend. So looking at the events for the Bureau, we are asking people now, when they sign up for tickets, have you been vaccinated? Well, basically, no. We say, we anticipate that you have been vaccinated when you buy this ticket. We went through it with Matchstick and they helped us figure out the best way to do it. And then we do have alternative participation methods, if you are not vaccinated for legitimate religious reasons or for medical reasons or whatever, we'll provide an alternative. But if you are saying certain employees can do something and certain employees can't do something, based on what I saw in a little bit of research, you need to pay attention to your local laws, your state laws, your federal laws, and workplace laws. I mean, that's the thing. That's what this is going to impact if you're distributed or you're located.
Gene: That's fascinating.
Carl: Fascinating.
Gene: Fascinating.
Carl: Oh, man. There's so much stuff. Well, I do want to kind of leave us with one little story here, that is one of my favorite office policy stories of all time. We had, when I worked at the agency I was at, about 40 people, and casual Fridays was not going to happen. And this was back... Kids, listen up, lean in. We're going to talk about the olden times. You had to wear a suit and tie. You had to do this when I was at the agency. All this kind of stuff. And then I started just not, kind of on Fridays. It wasn't a policy or anything, but I showed up one Friday in jeans and a t-shirt. And I'll never forget... This is going to sound really cocky. This is like a big humblebrag. It's not that humble, but I heard somebody had asked one of the people on the leadership, "How come Carl gets to dress down?" And their reply was, "When you land as much work as he does, you can dress down too."
Carl: And I was just like, "Oh shit, what else can I do?" But everybody did start to relax a little. And then eventually the CEO of the company said, "Look, the reason I've never been for casual Fridays is because I've spent so much money on these suits and these ties and this stuff. And I just worry that if we do casual Friday, suddenly it's going to be casual every day, unless we have a client coming in or whatever. I said, "But I'm fine with casual Fridays." So we switch over. Everybody suddenly is like, "Hey, I'm going to wear shorts and flip flops. I'm going to wear this. I'm going to wear that."
Carl: And then it happened. One day, one of my coworkers showed up wearing dolphin shorts. That's what we always call them. They have the slit in the side of the shorts, goes all the way up to the waistband.
Gene: Oh right. Did they go for a swim before coming to work?
Carl: It was the head of a department, and he loved those hot dolphin shorts.
Gene: The dolphin shorts.
Carl: And I remember walking into the mail room, and he was kind of bending over to pick up mail that his... this sounds really bad now, but his box was on the ground. So he had to go down there, and I just walked in and went, "Whoa, nice to meet you." You know? You talk about, in this episode, you were saying ownership and leadership. And you know what happened? Casual Friday got canceled forever.
Gene: No. See? That [inaudible 00:25:41]
Carl: It got canceled for everyone. I even stopped doing it because then I wasn't just like the golden boy. I would have been the golden jerk. It was like, "Oh, sorry, sorry, everyone. I guess that fell apart for you. Ha. Look at me."
Gene: It's going to be like, "Hey, Ron with the dolphin shorts ruined it for everybody." I mean, which is what you should have done. I mean, come on.
Carl: Everybody knew exactly what happened.
Gene: [crosstalk 00:26:06].
Carl: And it was just like, "Ugh."
Gene: That's the thing. You were just hiding behind this fucking sentence instead of just being like-
Carl: He wasn't hiding behind much. I can tell you that.
Gene: [inaudible 00:26:14] like "Bro, put on some pants, man. You're going to ruin this for everybody."
Carl: A couple of safety pins here. And it's for our safety. Okay?
Gene: Yeah, come on.
Carl: She wouldn't mind.
Gene: Come on.
Carl: So yeah. Yeah. And I can also... wait no. I'm not going to say that.
Gene: Oh man. Good story.
Carl: We can go rated PG-13. I'm not going to-
Gene: Really?
Carl: I wasn't going to tell you all about... It was a small world after all, Gene. You know, I'm just going to say it. It was... Yeah.
Gene: Good stuff.
Carl: All right. Well, everyone, thank you so much for attending today's episode, attending like during class. And if you don't mind, Gene would like to see your vaccination status on the way out. We are going to start requiring people be double-vaxxed to listen to the podcast.
Gene: Just the thing.
Carl: It's not going to hurt our numbers. I'll tell you that. All right, Gene, we'll see you next...
