What's the personal toll of running your own company? The emotional side, the impact it has on your family. You're going to be torn between providing for your family financially versus emotionally and it will drive your decisions. What ways would you do things differently if you had a chance to do it all again?
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Carl: Bee boop, bop boo. So the thing is Gene, when we do these cold opens, we never expect us to be in a not good mood.
Gene: That's true.
Carl: Yeah.
Gene: That's very true.
Carl: So what I'm going to say is you should start the show right before I say you stupid mother ...
Carl: That music is like Pavlovian man.
Gene: I know, right?
Carl: It's like, I was trying to do the stupid mother joke and you didn't hit to the cut and I had to stop because you wanted to see how I was going to say it.
Carl: I know how that phrase ends, Gene.
Gene: It's the only one way to do it.
Carl: I've been on both sides of it.
Gene: Have you really?
Carl: Oh, it sounds the same.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: But it feels different.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: How are you doing Gene Crawford?
Gene: Good, man. We're recording this on a Friday. So-
Carl: Kind of weird. Friday.
Gene: Yeah. Cool. Sure.
Carl: Thank you, Steve Jenks did it. That's one part of our Friday launch collection.
Gene: That's pretty good.
Carl: Which is a dangerous thing anybody in web services knows.
Gene: Yes.
Carl: You don't launch on a damn Friday.
Gene: Unless you want to work on a Saturday.
Carl: Unless you don't like weekends.
Gene: Yeah, no.
Carl: Because launch on a Friday and that weekend will disappear.
Gene: Could you just change it? Sorry. I know I should have, but could you just yeah, fuck that.
Carl: I thought you were asking me to change. Could you just ...
Gene: I'm convincing. That's how convincing clients-
Carl: You are an amazing actor.
Gene: Am I?
Carl: No. But I appreciate you asking me for clarification. I don't want to lie to you, Gene.
Gene: Are really good actors just really good liars?
Carl: Yeah. This is a great question. Because I was thinking about this as I was coming over here today, getting ready to record this, and I was thinking about, okay, let's think about is all this shit the worth it? Is everything we do running a shop worth it? And then I was thinking back to the one job I had. Right? I will firmly say that I think most people who run web shops are not employable.
Gene: I am not employable.
Carl: We are not employable. That's why we did this. And I'm thinking back to the job that I had and I thought, well, I presented well, and then I thought is I presented well just another way of saying I was a good liar?
Gene: Probably.
Carl: Because I didn't have confidence in what I was doing, but I projected that confidence. Right?
Gene: You sold it.
Carl: I sold it. Right? So I wasn't lying to them. I was probably believing that I could figure it out.
Gene: Little method acting is convince yourself that that's how it is and then it's easy to do.
Carl: Gene, how long have you been running your shop?
Gene: 17 years.
Carl: Worth it?
Gene: Not at all.
Carl: Oh my God. What were we thinking?
Gene: I don't know.
Carl: I'm at the bureau now and I'm fine. Because I got like 700 customers and that's cool. Three clients is a death wish.
Gene: Yeah. I won't tell you. I tried to work for someone about four years ago now. So the Iron Yard, in the co-work that I own, we did the first franchise version of the Iron Yard and then they were trying to get funding or whatever they were doing and they couldn't have franchises. So they had to buy the franchise out, which was cool. But as part of that, I became an employee and I think I lasted about eight months and they fired me.
Carl: And you took the whole thing down from the inside.
Gene: This is the plan. Yeah.
Carl: The way you showed me, the schematics that you did and the little, I love the drawings that geo put around the outside, they were just gorgeous. It was amazing and good for you. I'm proud of you the way that you took it down.
Carl: So 17 years you tried for eight months to do something else. And did you come running back to running your shop or did you ever really shut down your shop or was it always kind of going on the side?
Gene: Yeah, well, it was probably one of the reasons why they fire me, but I kind of kept it going. I mean it had two employees, three employees actually, when I was doing the Iron Yard stuff. Because again, that started as just, almost like a side thing. We had the cohort going and then it was like, well that can go in the co-work and kind of split time or whatever. And then it became supposedly full-time and I wasn't spending full time on it because I was keeping the shop running.
Carl: Right.
Gene: That's not why. I mean, it's just that one, things didn't work out, but two, I was distracted and I wasn't delivering on the thing that they needed.
Carl: Yeah. I mean, so that's it right? I mean, what you just said, you weren't delivering on the thing that they needed. And I think this becomes a big part of why people start their own companies. Right? Forget just web shops. Like in general, people start something because they have an idea, they think other people don't know what they're doing, the people they were working for, they get told that they need to get in their little hole. You go over there, that's where you belong. That's what you do. And then we're just like, fuck that. I've got ideas.
Carl: And then we go and we build exactly the place that we left because it was the only experience we ever had. We call things the same things. We steal forms and just swap out logos. Right? This is like the first year or two years. When I left Hus Jennings, the agency, and I fucking just replicated it. I don't know what I was thinking, but oh man.
Gene: That's what you knew and it's what you knew as success.
Carl: Yeah, no, that's totally valid. And I'll say this, it's when you start your own company, there is nobody left to blame. And I think that becomes the wake up call to appreciate anybody you worked for before.
Gene: Yeah, absolutely. So at any point in your running your own business after that, have you reached out to the people that you work for or somebody that was a manager or something?
Carl: Yeah. I mean, so when I started Engine, it was 2003. A lot of you kids listening weren't even born. Maybe like six or nine months into it, I shot an email out to Melanie Husk who is the only boss I've ever had. And she ruined me for other bosses. I've said that a bunch of times. And I said, "Hey, can we grab lunch?" And she was like, "Sure."
Carl: And I told her, I just said, we're sitting there having a nice meal, I said, "I just want to apologize. I didn't know what this was when you're in charge and you're running everything." And she said, she's the one that told me, "Yeah, there's nobody left to blame anymore" She goes, "A lot of the things you were upset about were real." She was like, "I did do things that you didn't understand because I wasn't just running a company. I was running a family. I was trying to manage a marriage." And you're sitting there thinking that's a stupid business move. And she said, "You even kind of told me that and I was your boss."
Carl: I was like, "I know, I'm sorry." And she was like, "No, but you weren't wrong. You just didn't understand the bigger picture of it's not just this company. This company is part really of kind of three prongs where it's me personally, me and my family, me and my company."
Carl: And I think Brian Samiskey from Serb, I was having drinks with him once. And he told me that his secret to trying to do it was, he knew he could only focus on two of those three points a day. Right? He said, "Think of it as a triangle. And whatever's on the bottom, you can't focus on that day." And so maybe you really need to focus on yourself and your family and the business just has to figure it out for a day without you. Or maybe it's you have to focus on yourself in the business and the family will be fine.
Carl: And I don't know if this is true for you, but I have never been able to get my company and my family in a really good place at the same time.
Gene: I think you're right.
Carl: Have you?
Gene: It's kind of weird.
Carl: Anybody listening, have you ever been able to get it where your company and your family were just humming along?
Gene: Not for an extended memorable amount of time.
Carl: I will take 10 minutes.
Gene: Okay.
Carl: I'm with you though, right? It's like for a week, for a month. I mean, hell, Bezos couldn't do it. Bezos, whatever. Right? Evidently old Billy Gates struggled. Right? And I'm not saying this just all white dudes who are billionaires. It's anybody. I think we create these companies and they become an extension of ourselves and we protect them and we defend them and we apologize for them. Right? And we try to do what's best for them. And there are probably people out there that are much better at this than I am. I was never able to be what I needed to be for both the company and my family at the same time. My true confessions.
Gene: Well, I think the types of businesses that we run are very susceptible to everything you just said, right? The services, consulting, human resource based things. I know I've coached people who run different types of businesses. I mean, one guy, he's a roofer, and who he is as a human being is not defined by how good of a quality of roof he installs. Right? He's just like, "I do a good job. I provide value. My customers aren't mad at me. They're happy with the work, and I just pay my employees and we just do our work." And he goes home, I know him. He goes home and he's cool. And I'm not disparaging that type of work. I think in many ways, something like that would be really refreshing. There's so many days where I'm like, fuck, I just want to go drive a lawn mower all day for a living. That would be so cool to just do that.
Carl: Yeah. I had somebody I worked with, Melanie's husband, Gary, who kind of fancied himself, my boss, but we both knew there was only one boss and it was Melanie, and Gary could throw a tantrum. He could get his way. But I remember one day he told me, he goes, his favorite thing in the world to do was mow the lawn. And I was like, "Your favorite?" He goes, "When it comes to work things," he's like, "When I have to do something," he's like, "I mow the lawn." He goes and, "Why? Because in creative services you can finish something. And then before you even know it, it's undone." He goes, "When I go and I mow a strip of that grass and I turn around, it did not just grow back."
Gene: Go back and watch it.
Carl: Exactly. And what I realized was that's doing dishes for me. I love washing dishes.
Gene: That's cool.
Carl: Even if I do it wrong. Right? Which I found out later in life, I am horrible at it, but it's one of those things, right? It's like those types of jobs and again, the roofer, the plumber, the blue collar, this kind of stuff. If they're independent contractors, they probably go through this as well. If they're working for somebody else, maybe not. But I think it's just this situation of we've made this choice and we are going to have to divide ourselves. And the other thing that really is a struggle for me, I mean, even with the bureau, it's I want to take care of my family first and foremost. I mean, I've told the girls, everything I do is for you.
Carl: I just have to focus on that because sometimes the things I'm doing, I just don't want to do, but they need to get done. And when I realized that I'm doing that, so y'all can have the lives that you want to have, no you're going to take care of yourselves. You're going to stand up. You don't need to depend on me, but right now I have to go do this. And so then I'm not there emotionally, and I'm not there physically, but I'm there financially.
Carl: And I think when you're running your own shop, you get into this struggle. And there's some people I've seen who I think have done it amazingly well, or they are amazing illusionists, right? But I mean, and I don't want you to out the inner workings of the Crawford household, but have you not struggled with this? Where-
Gene: Oh for 17 years.
Carl: There's something going on with the family, but damn it, we've got to finish this project. And that's just fucking pain.
Gene: The big one is vacations. Right? I mean I can't tell you, honestly, it wasn't until recently, and it wasn't even a big vacation. It was just a few days.
Carl: Few days in the backyard.
Gene: To me when I say vacation, a trip, I fly somewhere in an airplane and we're gone for like two weeks. To me, that's an amount of time. I don't think I've ever, ever taken one since I've started my own business where I wasn't working before they got up or working after they went to bed or secretly responding to people throughout the day about something that's fucked up. I've always kind of done that.
Gene: What are you mad about?
Carl: No, keep going. My mirror neurons are flashing.
Gene: And sometimes it's like, hey, we got to get this done because, hey, this is extra money. This is paying for this trip, which is always bullshit. But usually it's something that I fucked up, not managing properly with the client or we're in trouble because of something. So I'm doing corrective things and it's just the timeline hit up against to the vacation. I just have to fucking deal with it while we're there. It's all kinds of different reasons. But I don't think until maybe two years ago was I ever took a vacation where I was working.
Gene: We went to the mountains earlier this year. And there was no problem. There was no thing to build. I like, wow, I don't know what's going on. And I opened up my computer because of course I brought my computer and I was like, I'm just going to write.
Carl: It's like muscle memory. Create something.
Gene: Yeah. But I just created some stuff for myself. And I was like, this is got to be how the better half lives. Is this what it means to be a billionaire?
Carl: Something you just said really triggered me and it was this secretly working. Right? So when you run a shop and you've told yourself, let's not say that you know, let's say you've told yourself and I mean, you could be a three, four, five, 50, 100 person company, whatever, maybe at a hundred, you get a little more air cover, but you're sitting there and you're like, ah, I should probably just check in. I should just check in. And then you're like, oh, I've got to go to the bathroom again. Or whatever. Right?
Carl: Or it's not even that. Right? For me, I just look and see, oh, my family's doing this thing. I actually started just doing it in the open. We had an event. We were at a beach vacation, and I knew that we needed to get owner summit on sale. And I was sitting there and they were just going through this marathon of true crime shows. And I was just like, do we have to do this? It's so painful. And then I said, while they're doing that, I'm just going to finish up the last things here and I'm going to put this on sale. And I put it on sale, and I shot out to alumni and to members a special link that they could go ahead and grab it. And then I watch sales start to happen. I watch people go, "Oh, sweet. We want to get there, want to do this." And I started saw the sale and I was like, oh, okay, ah. Right?
Carl: And I was able to go back into the guy who buried 17 people, three feet from the road or whatever. And then I was like, ah, I don't know. We dig in another hole. So interesting.
Carl: But so this is the thing, because you feel it when you try to do it secretly you're keeping something from your family and they know it. The other thing was when I was running Engine, we would have a really nice meal or do something and even when the kids were little, we would say, "Thanks Engine." It was just this little thing that so they knew that when I was gone, that was kind of the deal.
Gene: I think that's probably healthy. It's probably healthy to let everyone know what's going on. It's going to help alleviate some stress and you might God, you might even get support.
Carl: Well, I mean, yeah.
Gene: You might.
Carl: Yeah.
Gene: I mean, I always wish I would've done that. Then said like, "Hey, shit's hit the fan. I know we're on vacation, but I got to go take care of this." And then just sit your ass down and take care of it.
Carl: Yeah. Do it for the lounge chair by the pool.
Gene: Yeah. Or this piecemeal shit that you wind up doing for like three days, which only makes it whatever thing you're working on worse.
Carl: And I know there are people that listen to this, people that I know that are good friends, they're going to be like, "No, you've got to just cut yourself off. Just do that." I don't think they're wrong.
Gene: They're not.
Carl: I just think you have to ask yourself is not knowing or not taking care of it, going to make me an asshole for two days because I'm worried about it? And the family's not going to be able to have a good time because I'm constantly going harrumph or can I spend an hour and trick myself into thinking, oh, it's all good. And here we go.
Gene: Well, I think something that kind of happens is we were talking about lying. We lie to ourselves a lot.
Carl: The stories we tell.
Gene: Yeah. And I think for me, I was able to deal with a lot of this better when I just sort of accepted that this is who I am. This is the lifestyle that I've chosen, is who I am, the type of business I run. I don't know, for the first 10 years, all we did was fight against the type of business we were. We're not a services company. We're going to do this and this thing. And this is how I do things.
Carl: We're going to build a product, and it's going to make a lot of money.
Gene: I didn't want to say that specifically, but yeah. And you're like, what the fuck are you doing? You're a services company that's hates itself and it's pretending to be something else. And I know so many people that do that and it wasn't until I was just like, look, man, we build shit for other people. That's all it's about. It's about how we deal with those people and the quality of the shit we build. And that's it.
Gene: Don't worry about it. Don't try to be something you're not. And it probably happened about the same time when I started doing other things. I started doing conferences, we launched a co-work and those things sort of scratch that itch too. But they're different buckets. I wasn't trying to take this thing that's a services company and turn it into some other shit. It can't be.It's like, it is what it is.
Carl: I mean, you have to stay true to yourself, but you also have to stay in existence. And this becomes another challenge I think when you're running a shop, and this is early on. I don't know that this still exists. And this is another thing. Right? So you and I, a lot of people started their shops in the late '90s. Right? We started in early 2000s. We're kind of the first generation of web shop owners, digital agency, digital studio, whatever you want to say to be looking at some level of retirement or exit or this or that. And I think that causes a lot of reflection right now.
Carl: There are other people who are just at the beginning of this, that they're going to hear some of this and go what? But for at the time, because we were new, there was this whole well we're going to hand you business cards with our logo and your name. And I remember us going, "That's great because we have a trash can. That's where we'll put that."
Carl: Because no, we're building a name for ourselves. We're doing something. We're creating stuff for other people. But we're doing this for us. And that's the thing. I think this became really evident to me early on. We hold the power of creation and people come to us to create things for them and then we act like we don't have any power. What the hell is that? We have all the power. We have the magic, they don't know how to do this. And I don't care today how many Squarespaces or Wix or whatever may be out there. There's still magic. There's still things that we can do that they can't do. And they need us.
Carl: Now we need them to survive and to take care of our families. But when did we get so wimpy? It like started early on. And I think it's because the web was so new, but now it's not. It's been around for a while. I've definitely been around for awhile. Right? You? Pretty, pretty long time. So yeah, that to me is just like, we have to stand up. Right? But at the same time, we're having families. I mean, so Gene, if you could go back right at that origin moment for period three, would you still do it?
Gene: Absolutely.
Carl: I can't imagine doing anything else.
Gene: I can't either.
Carl: And yet I question every moment of it.
Gene: I know. It's a certain personality type for sure.
Carl: Would you do it different though, do you think?
Gene: Yeah. Well, yeah, obviously. I mean, with the experience that I have and the knowledge of how things work with, not things with people, the knowledge of how people work and respond. Yeah. I would do things very differently.
Carl: What about between the company and your family?
Gene: Absolutely.
Carl: Because I think how old are your boys?
Gene: 18 and 16.
Carl: Yeah, right. And your company is ...
Gene: 17. There you go. Right? And so I started Engine when Kaylee was three and Alyssa was one. Right? And so it's one of those things like a lot of us, I think we realized we now have new responsibilities. We've got little people we have to take care of. So we start our own thing thinking that's the way to do it. And it kind of takes us out of the equation, but once we get established and everything, they're kind of out of the equation. Oh man.
Gene: Yes. I mean, but that's not just people who started their own business. I mean, I've heard of traveling salespeople or C level.
Carl: Traveling salespeople? That's what you're going to lead with?
Gene: Oh, fireman, whatever the fuck. But I mean, it's not just us, man. And a lot of people do that. They bury themselves in work. It says a lot to that. There's a lot to unpack with what you think success means and where you put your priorities behind [crosstalk 00:25:02] that. I mean, that's like a whole different-
Carl: I totally agree.
Gene: We need to call Dr. Phil.
Carl: I've got friends that are crazy successful the way that I look at it. And yet they feel like they haven't quite done what they meant to. Right? And it's not just money. Although money definitely plays a role. Not everybody's trying to get through this like Gandhi who evidently made a lot of money on rice. I don't know. But not everybody's trying to just create something. You have to sustain, you have to stay alive, you have to do all those things. But the thing to me is when I talk to some of my friends who, they could sell their companies for lots and lots of money and some of them are positioned to do it and like, "No, I'm not ready."
Carl: And this gets to this idea of our companies being a part of us and our families are us. Right? They're not a part of us. They are us. And when you have a company, it's an extension of you. Maybe it's a manifestation of ideas that you had and other people had, but it's not going to love you in your old age. It's not going to come visit you at the old folks home.
Gene: If you have your own business, you probably spend more time with it then you do your actual family.
Carl: Even if you're with your family.
Gene: Yeah. Even when you're with them, you're thinking about it.
Carl: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's the thing, right? How often were you at work just knee deep trying to figure shit out but your brain was really thinking about one of kids.
Gene: Oh yeah.
Carl: How many times are you with one of your kids doing something, but your brain is really at work? This is what we got to fix. I think work-life balance is probably bullshit. I think it's about being where you are when you're there so that you can make real things happen. When you're at work, be at work. When you're home, be home. Sometimes work is going to need you more. Sometimes home is going to need you more. But the worst of it, and I remember Melanie saying this to me, we were having this discussion, it was right after I told her I was leaving. I'd been there 14 years. And she said, "I looked up and my kids were grown." Right? And I vowed, I wouldn't let that happen, but you know what, Gene? I've looked up, my kids are gone.
Gene: I mean, you're at this point in your life too, it's going to happen regardless.
Carl: Yeah, it's very rude. They just kept growing.
Gene: I know, you can't get time back, man. They grow. You can't go backwards. They'll never be the way they were before. You'll never be the way you were before. I think work-life balance as a concept is bullshit too, because you're sort of looking ... You're you. You are who you are. You're a person, you do these things. You might identify yourself more with the things you produce. You might identify yourself more by the people that you've decided to live your life with or the kids that you've produced or whatever.
Gene: You might be a mix of the two, but you have to accept that that's who you are. And I think not to get too psychological, but we struggle with that and I did for a long time, just like I do with business struggling to not accept the type of business it is. We're not lame like those other design shops, we're special. Not really. You're just another design shop. Just hopefully you do a little bit better than the other one. Same with being a parent, you're not special. Just, I hope you don't fuck your kids up more than the next guy. Just accept who you are. Move on with your life, man.
Carl: Let's call it work-life focus.
Gene: Yeah. I like that.
Carl: I think that's it. I mean, not for everybody. I mean, if somebody really, really respects work-life balance and that works for them, that's great. Again, it's just not about everything is the same for everybody. But I know we're coming up on time here and I appreciate, first of all, want to say thank you. Because I know this wasn't the topic we were going with. And I came in kind of hot and bothered to talk about is all this shit worth it? And I will say, I think it is. I mean, oh spoiler alert, but it's hard. And there's going to be things that you do that you regret and that you wish you did differently, but I'm going to end with this.
Carl: My kids had a pretty good childhood. When we did go places, we did things. We had a lot of fun. We did all this stuff and I'll see videos of them that they made. This is the best about gen Z is they're making their own family videos when they're three.
Gene: I know it's weird.
Carl: We handed them those damn iPhones, and we didn't know when they got the iPad that they were just going to be like, I shall now start documenting my life three years.
Gene: From that perspective.
Carl: But I remember going and looking through those videos and the narrative that I had told myself, and I definitely made mistakes. Right? You always make mistakes, but they were having their lives while I was doing the things. While I was doing the work stuff, they were still having their lives. And honestly, they're pretty great kids. They have their challenges, and there are days where you're just like, what did I do that caused somebody to be like that? And then you're like, oh no, they're independent.
Carl: My dad said this to me. He goes, "Just realize if you raise independent kids, they're not going to listen to you." So here we are.
Gene: That's good. Oh man, I like that.
Carl: Yeah. Good times,
Carl: Gene, thanks for letting me have an episode.
Gene: Is that what this is?
Carl: It's a podcast we call it.
Carl: I miss running a shop I guess. And then I ask myself, was it worth it? And there's part of it where you just feel special and important. And I'll say this about Engine, you're right. I mean, everybody, are you special? Are you this, are you that? I think we were. I think we did some great things. We took things different places. We weren't serious about it. We had a lot of fun drank a lot of tequila, a lot of tequila.
Carl: That maybe isn't the best thing we should have been doing. But I just think that ... I'm looking at pictures right now of one of my daughters that's on the wall here. That's what I'm looking at right now. And I'm looking at who she is and what she's become. And yeah. You know what? There are things I would definitely take away, but me being in charge of my life and building something that I felt was important, I think that's what they took away because now they are building things that they think are important. And I don't think they're really going to work for anybody else.
Gene: And that's your legacy.
Carl: That's just my legacy, Gener de Crawford. Your name is now Gener.
Gene: That's okay. I'll take it.
Carl: You good brother?
Gene: All right, man. Yeah, I'm good.
Carl: All right. You just going to stop it? You just going to end the ep-
