For a few years, there's been chatter in the community about B-Corps. A lot of the talk has been about how hard it is to qualify and is it worth it. Lately, with the difficulty in hiring talent, B-Corps seem to have a leg up on everyone else as people want to work for a company with a commitment to doing good things in the world. So what exactly is a "Benefit Corporation", how do you become one, and is it worth it?
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Carl: (singing)
Gene: Are you ready for this?
Carl: I am. I am so ready for this, and that was almost timed perfectly.
Gene: Almost.
Carl: Almost.
Gene: I'm working on it.
Carl: Almost, you're getting there.
Gene: Yeah, man.
Carl: You're getting there, precious. You're going to make it.
Gene: So what has happened to you since I last talked to you, last week?
Carl: Well, turkey buzzard invasion.
Gene: You told me about the possum.
Carl: I did. It did not go well for the possum. It did not. It was a turkey buzzard cookout. All right. Now that we've lost everybody that was listening.
Gene: It never goes well for the possum.
Carl: No, man. Nah, just getting more events online. First quarter, actually all the way through April now, we have agreements and stuff. So getting back out there can't wait.
Gene: What?
Carl: Can't wait. It's going to be exciting. What about you? What's new with you?
Gene: People, be putting people in seats.
Carl: Butts in seats, Gene.
Gene: Butts in seats. I got to interview one of my heroes on my other, I have another podcast-
Carl: [crosstalk 00:01:32]
Gene: ... and I got to interview.
Carl: Dammit.
Gene: It went well and I'm very happy.
Carl: Who was it? It was Ellen DeGeneres, wasn't it?
Gene: It was.
Carl: I know. I know how you feel about Ellen.
Gene: Yeah, is a gentlemen named Tony [Blauer 00:01:49]. He's a long-time martial artist and-
Carl: Nice man.
Gene: I got to interview him in ... I made a list-
Carl: Sounds like the prime minister of Canada, did you not know that?
Gene: He's from Canada. No, I made a list of 10 people I would, if everything was equal, I'd want to interview. And he was one of them, and he was the first one I reached out to.
Carl: I thought that was like, "10 people I'd really want to interview, and he's one of them."
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: I can just, so how did it go?
Gene: It went well, it was a good conversation. We became friends,
Carl: What?
Gene: As much as you can become friends through [crosstalk 00:02:31]-
Carl: Did you talk to him later?
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: Oh really?
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: Okay? Hey, whatever. I'm not jealous. I've got other friends, my eyes cross all the time, it's not just when I'm jealous.
Gene: Oh man. That's funny.
Carl: Oh, is it?
Gene: [crosstalk 00:02:49]
Carl: I can tell from your authentic laughter that you were just-
Gene: Yeah. All right, man, so-
Carl: Did I tell you about the possum?
Gene: You did.
Carl: God, so crazy. If that possum had been a B Corp ...
Gene: Good segue. I was wondering how do we segue from possum to B Corp?
Carl: It's pretty easy.
Gene: Is it?
Carl: We just did it.
Gene: I don't know what a B Corp is. So your last newsletter talks all about becoming a B Corp. And I looked at that and I was like, "What the hell is a B Corp? Why would I even want to bother?"
Carl: Why would you want to bother? So it's funny, because this started maybe three years ago. I think, one of the first shops I heard of, that was a B Corp, was Firefly Partners, and then probably Constructive. I didn't know what it was. I knew it meant that they were doing good, but I didn't know if there was an official certification. Anything like that?
Gene: It seems like it's pretty involved.
Carl: Yeah, so what's happened, is I would say there's probably maybe a dozen out of the 400-ish Bureau shops, that are member shops, and figure, I have no idea when you get up to the ones that are part of the community, which is 3,000. But if you look at those 400, I'd say maybe a dozen to 20 are B Corps. And so here's the thing, for people who've never heard this term before. It basically stands, I'm looking for it right now, because I can't remember. It's not betterment. What's the word, Gene?
Gene: Betterment?
Carl: It's not Beneficial Corporation?
Gene: What does it stand for?
Carl: Look it up while I'm talking and we'll act like we knew the whole time.
Gene: Yeah, keep going.
Carl: So basically what it means, is that you're not just going to be judged on your financial health. You're making a commitment to do good in the world. So you're going to, it could be from the way you treat people, the way your product is manufactured, your carbon footprint, that sort of stuff. I think the way that it was explained to me, that I finally got it, was what Fair Trade is to coffee, B Corp is to a service or product company. So they have signed up, and been approved, to maintain a certain level, a very high level of good.
Gene: Gotcha.
Carl: Now what's interesting was, I put in the newsletter, that there was, if you were going to be a B Corp, don't expect the tax benefits of being an S Corp. Or don't expect, you don't get any additional benefits. But then I was corrected and I'm glad, because this shows how confusing it was to me, by our friends at Matchstick Legal. And they said, "Hey, a B Corp is more of a certification. So you can be an S Corp and a B Corp."
Gene: Right, that's, after reading through it, what I understood, it's like an add-on.
Carl: And for me, I was part of a B-S Corp.
Gene: Kind of like this podcast?
Carl: [crosstalk 00:06:02] B-S Corp, kind of like this podcast. But so yeah, so a B Corp is basically somebody who says, "I am going to," and it was the way it felt to me, "I'm going to subject myself to a high level of scrutiny, so I can tell people, 'Well, my company passed the test of being one of the best companies for humans and the planet that there is'."
Gene: Okay.
Carl: Why would you do that? Why would you do that, Gene?
Gene: I don't understand.
Carl: Well, because you're not a good human.
Gene: That's probably crew, probably true.
Carl: Probably crew?
Gene: Probably crew.
Carl: Okay.
Gene: So I'm looking at examples, companies that are B Corps. So we got Allbirds, Patagonia, Frank and Oak, Bombas, BeautyCounter Tintri, United By Blue.
Carl: Ben and Jerry's.
Gene: Athleta, [inaudible 00:06:56]. Yeah, Ben and Jerry's.
Carl: Just joined, yeah. They just showed up. So, here's the thing, I think is the reason it came back up in the Bureau channels recently, I think. I'm going to say, "I think," a lot today.
Gene: It's okay.
Carl: Because I'm in the thinking mind.
Gene: Better than saying, "I know."
Carl: Which I do not. So when you are in a battle for talent, you need differentiators.
Gene: Yeah, right.
Carl: Now I'm not saying that ... The people who are B Corps, became B Corps a while ago. There's some that are coming now, but it's a long process. It's almost like getting a line of credit. You have to get the line of credit when you don't really need it. Becoming a B Corp is a long process from my understanding. It is involved. It is going to take time away from other things, so that you can do it properly.
Carl: So doing it when you need to be one, it's probably too late for this need. If that's even what you're doing it. I, again, I don't want to assume that people are doing this to get something out of it. Most of them are doing it because it feels right. But the benefit, if you are in a battle for talent, and they have to choose between a company that's doing cool stuff and they like, and another one that has been certified as one of the best companies there is when it comes to doing good, ads a pretty big benefit.
Gene: It's going to differentiate you for sure. How big of a deal do you think that actually is, at the end of the day?
Carl: I think it's pretty big, because if you look at the best talent, they want to make a difference. Okay, so I have become the best Java, this, that the best Django, the best, whatever developer there is. I am probably not going to work on projects that save the planet. I'm probably going to end up working on some sort of financial app, maybe a fantasy sports app, something that involves a lot of data crunching.
Gene: The closest thing you might come to, is healthcare or something.
Carl: Yeah, right. So you might come to healthcare, you may come to something that's more, mission-driven, more charity-based, those things are going to be, we know what it's like to work with some of these nonprofits. They're not exactly, they shouldn't be called an organization, because they are not organized. But if you're working for a company that has made a commitment to do good with the profits they make, with the way they approach their work, you get to scratch that itch of wanting to be a good person, when you've elevated yourself to the top level of what it is you do. So I think it is a big deal in establishing the best talent, and also in just feeling good about what you're doing.
Gene: Yeah, that's right. The mission of the widget your building may not be to save the planet, or to make people better, but it doesn't mean you can't from the profits of your business.
Carl: Right, by the same token, probably attract better clients. Attract clients who are, maybe they want to be a B Corp, maybe they are a B Corp. Maybe they just want to be associated with other companies so that when they go in, to share with their higher-ups, or their executive team, or whoever it might be, "Hey, these are the organizations we're thinking about working with." I'd be willing to bet you, if you fought to become a B Corp and you've put that in your pitch, and it's in your marketing, it's in your DNA now, that when they're sharing with their board, or with their executive team, they're going to say, "Well, and they're a B Corp," and it'll either bode the question, "What is that?" Or it'll make people say, "Are the others?" I think it's really a differentiator, I do.
Gene: [crosstalk 00:10:51]
Carl: But I think it comes with-
Gene: It stands for benefit by the way.
Carl: Benefit Organization, there you go. I really like betterment, but that's why-
Gene: The Department For Betterment Of Mondays.
Carl: That's why I decided not to become a B Corp because I didn't like what stood for.
Gene: Didn't like the B-
Carl: Didn't like it.
Gene: ... stands for.
Carl: So benefit corporation, that makes perfect sense.
Gene: So looking at the cons, getting accepted is tough. Over 200 different criteria, what the hell? And then you have to be recertified every three years or so. Then at the end, there's no real tax benefit.
Carl: Yeah, so I think, again, this is the kind of thing you have to do because it's what you want your organization to stand for. You can't do it for the pros. I think the pros are just a really nice after-effect right there. They're really nice side-effect of becoming a B Corp. Because you are, the time you put in, the time you're going to put in again three years from now, when they probably have changed some of the criteria, the changes you have to make in order to get the right scores, to get the B Corp certification, all feels heavy. But I think the thing that feels heaviest to me, especially if you're running a web shop, even if you're 50 people, there's going to come a time where you have to make a decision that, out of context, is going to feel like you did something that wasn't appropriate.
Carl: But in context, you did what you had to, to maintain the integrity of the team, the product, the client, whatever. So for example, I mean, this happened to us when we joined with TriNet. TriNet's a great company. They're basically, they help you manage all your HR. They're now a sponsor of the show. No, they help you manage your HR. They help you manage all of these different things. But when you sign up with them, there are now certain things you can't skirt. So we had a situation where we had payroll coming up, and we had a client check coming in, and I needed to postpone everything one day. One day, so that I could get the check to clear, so that payroll would clear. If anybody listening to this runs a shop, you know what this is.
Carl: You got caught in a little bit of a tight situation and you tell your team, "Hey, everybody, sorry about this. We're just waiting on this to clear. Everybody will be cool." And the team knows, you give them a heads up. It's not like they go in and the money is not there. But when you're part of something like TriNet, a professional employment organization, a PEO. They say, "No, that's against the law. You have to pay them on the day it's due. We can not stop the draw from your main account. This is impossible."
Carl: So I have to take from my personal line of credit, and you can call it a company line of credit, but your ass is the one who's going to lose their house if the line of credit doesn't get paid. So you take that line of credit, you cover it. It's fine, but it's not the choice you would have necessarily made had you not been part of the association. So now when you look at a B Corp, I think it's a similar thing. I haven't been one. So anybody listening, that is one, please respond. Please let us know.
Gene: Yeah, we'd like to hear about it.
Carl: To me, it feels like there's going to come a time where there's a situation and you need to make a short-term call to weather a storm, that maybe you can't now, because you're at a higher level of scrutiny. And maybe that's a great thing. Maybe that helps the whole industry level up and mature. I don't know.
Gene: It could. Let me ask you this. If you were still running Ngen, is this something you would have looked at?
Carl: No. I wouldn't have, because I was interested in going home on time, and that was it. I got to a point with Ngen, where I wanted to make sure everybody was taken care of, everybody was happy, we had enough money coming in and I could get home on time. I don't think there's any part of those four goals, minus the happy thing, it may have made some people very happy. I know it would have made some people on our team very happy. But one out of four? Yeah. I wouldn't have done it. What about you?
Gene: No, I don't know that ... It just feels like you need to be a business of a certain size. I know that's wrong. You can't be like, "No, bullshit. Anybody can help anybody." But it just has that vibe, especially after some of the stuff you just said. There might be operating rules with your employees that you have to abide by. Not that you would want to cheat your employees or anything, but the example you had of just offsetting one day, just to make sure everything's right. Versus putting your own personal whatever in jeopardy for that, I mean, that's a big commitment. Above and beyond just making payroll.
Carl: So here's another thing, right? Let's take that, and again, this isn't about B Corp. Now I'm talking about PEOs, but it's that same idea of losing flexibility. The example that I gave, I had a second solution that I pitched to TriNet, which wasn't that we would wait on the check to clear day. I said, "Okay, I just won't pay myself." And I couldn't do that either.
Gene: Because you're an employee, right?
Carl: Because I'm an employee. So as an owner, I could no longer even take away from myself to promote the team. I couldn't protect the team at my own expense anymore. Which, if you're an owner, that shit's something you do all the time. You hate it, but you do it, because you think that's your job, which also is total bullshit. That is not your job.
Gene: Well, the business is an entity that exists separate from you, and you forget that. That you, even if you're a sole proprietor or whatever, the business is still a separate entity.
Carl: Tell me about it. There were nights where Ngen would call me so drunk, and it would be like, "Oh, we can't drive home. Can you just come get us?" And I was like, "Damn you entity unto your own. I'll be there."
Gene: I mean, B Corp's cool. What sorts of things did you do, as Ngen, or even now with Bureau, whatever, that actually helps, your ... What's the word I'm looking for? What's the word they use to describe B Corp? Your status, that helps your footprint, your status, footprint, to be better, not to look better, but to be better.
Carl: Yeah, I was going to take a little issue with the word, "Status," because that feels like you're trying to look a certain way. You're going for the optics of it. But I'll say with Ngen, the thing we did that I was proudest of, was we fought to keep art in schools, in Duval County, well, actually in the state. And we actually went into really challenged schools, and it wasn't necessarily the students, it was the financing for the schools and we tart ... We tart, and we tart.
Gene: What'd you tart?
Carl: We tarted all over the place. Oh my goodness, that sounded wrong. No, we taught art lessons to the kids in sixth grade. And we would teach an art lesson, and then they had a tile that they were to do. It ended up creating this giant mural that said, "Keep art in schools." It had a Florida state, not Florida state, but the state of Florida, the shape of the state was there. So it created all these things that we then were able to send to Tallahassee, to fight to keep art in schools. It was amazing.
Gene: That's cool.
Carl: [crosstalk 00:19:10]
Gene: Yeah, so well being [crosstalk 00:19:11]-
Carl: Kicked it right out, didn't give a shit. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, I mean, it was a great thing. The other thing I'll say-
Gene: Well, it is Florida.
Carl: Right, yeah, it is. It's a mindset unto its own. But no, I would say that was the one thing we did. We did a lot of stuff like that. We worked to get a new concept for schools out, but education was definitely-
Gene: Wow, that's cool.
Carl: ... where we would. It would be every couple of years, it wasn't every year. It's not like it was an ongoing effort. I don't want to misrepresent, but when we did it, we were all in.
Gene: That's cool. That's awesome, [crosstalk 00:19:45]-
Carl: What about you? Did you ever go in for any stuff like that? I'm sure you did.
Gene: Yeah, we was still do. There's some particular things that are close to my heart. We do this, defunct now, but we did this thing called Run For The Fallen. So across the state, there was this group of veterans that would run from the tip of the state all the way down to the bottom of it, it's across it. So they would do that, so we built their website for them and help do some marketing for them. We'd go out and volunteer. So that was not a direct, like education or anything like that. And then, we're in the capital of the state here, so there're nonprofits everywhere. So there was a few years, where every year we would pick a nonprofit and then just do their stuff for them, like build a website or go consult with them, solve some problem or whatever. So we do that.
Carl: I think you just hit on something, when we talk about B Corp. So I was thinking about the dozen shops that I know, I think almost all of them are really heavy in the nonprofit space, and the ones that became B Corp's early, were definitely in the nonprofit space. So maybe to your point, you said it could be the space you're in, maybe they were starting to lose to other web shops that had that certification?
Gene: Maybe?
Carl: And they were like, "That's something we need to be."
Gene: Yeah, could be. Yeah, I can definitely see it as a competitive difference-maker, but also, the general wanting to just do better, but I don't know that a label like that necessarily stops you from doing better things. And I think that's important to recognize as well.
Carl: I think you're right. But I think it's also saying, "You know what? I ran along way. I swim a long way. I rode a bike a long way." Versus, "I completed a triathlon."
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: If you don't get the medal, if you don't get the B Corp certification-
Gene: Yeah, I know. It's cool to get the metal.
Carl: ... did you though? Did you really run?
Gene: I'm not sure.
Carl: And swim, and bike a long way? Did anybody see you? So, yeah, but I mean, I see what you're saying though. You can, by being present where good as being done, and participating, you can do that without going through all of the challenges, and justly so, to get this certification. But at the same time, if you do go through that, boy, you've said, "This is what we stand for." This is not marketing at this point. This is a business decision, and I respect the hell out of people who've done it.
Gene: I do too, and the reality is, all those nonprofits that we did work for and everything, we never made a dime on it, nor were we ever to claim any of that stuff on our taxes. If you're doing that kind of stuff, you're just doing it from your own altruism, because you believe in the thing, or you generally want to make something better. You're not going to get any bonus from it, that's for sure. So this could be a good way to actually see some sort of bonus out of it. If you get to claim this title, it could make a difference.
Carl: Did you make profit off the projects you tried to make profit off of? Because that's probably where Ngen fell apart. We weren't making profit on anything.
Gene: [crosstalk 00:23:10]
Carl: I mean, just as soon as we signed off on the Tequila budget-
Gene: I never, yeah, I can never figure it out.
Carl: ... the project, it was gone. And that's another thing, just real quick to say about these B Corps, and you just hit on it. Nonprofit doesn't mean, "Not for profit, for you." There are nonprofits out there that have substantial budgets, and want to spend them on really good stuff, and they hire really good companies to do that, and they know it's going to cost more. So again, that's part of being in this space and believing in yourself. So which, Gene, brings me to my hot take of the week.
Gene: Oh, hot take.
Carl: Are you ready? If you don't respect yourself, why the hell should anybody else?
Gene: Oh, that stings.
Carl: This came up two or three times for me last week.
Gene: Wow.
Carl: Where I was talking with somebody, different people, really smart, really talented, really good business people, who are just letting people walk all over them. Either from a timing perspective, or a budget perspective, or a respect perspective. And so for me, it was just [inaudible 00:24:30]. When I was in the third conversation, I was like, "What is happening? Why is everybody suddenly acting like they aren't worthy of respect?"
Carl: And I don't mean respect in the way of, "Bend down and kiss my ring." I mean, respect in the way of, "Oh, I'm glad you're here. I think you're really going to be able to add something." Instead of, "Could you just wait a minute, we're going to get to you in a minute, once we know what it is we want." That's the kind of shit that came up. And I hope, I don't think this is a shift in the ... I mean, it definitely not statistically relevant as they say, I can't say it. But it's one of those things, where I was just like, "Why is this suddenly happening going into the summer, or coming out of the pandemic?" Or, is this like a little fuse-
Gene: Are they related?
Carl: ... that suddenly clients are going to start being more aggressive? I don't know. What about you?
Gene: What did you get to? I mean, what did you get down to the bottom of? Is it causal or corollary?
Carl: I don't know, I'm still in the middle of it. So I think it's just going to be happenstance, which some people might call coinkydink, but it was one of those things. There was nothing about industry, there was nothing about size of shop, type of services, any of that kind of stuff. It was just a thing where clients had not responded, or decided to make changes, but not want to pay for them, or things like that. And I am not a coach. I just want to say this right now. I've been asked recently if I would coach some people. And I said, "You really don't want that." It's not a thing, but I do feel like I get in these conversations a lot, and I'm not on the front lines anymore.
Gene: We'll see, one of the things that the Bureau provides, which is something that struck home to me, when I went to the owner summit.
Carl: Yeah, in Charleston?
Gene: Four years, five years ago.
Carl: Yeah.
Gene: Is that, it's one of the things where if you're running a shop, I mean, any business, you're at the top of it. You feel very alone.
Carl: Oh my God.
Gene: So, you can't go bitching to your employees about your problems as the owner of this business. And if you have a spouse, you probably don't even, they're probably tired of hearing your shit anyway. You definitely feel alone, so-
Carl: Is this an intervention?
Gene: Yeah, you start to-
Carl: God dammit.
Gene: Well, you start to create stories, and you start to create your own narrative based on when shit happens with a client or whatever. And I can see where you can easily put yourself in a position of being below a client, letting them disrespect you. Even, maybe that client's doing it subtly too. And you just aren't picking up on it until they're just absolutely having their way with you. But I think it all stems from the fact that when you're running your business, you can be very alone in the decision-making and all that stuff.
Gene: That's one of the things I've always thought the Bureau was best at, was connecting that so that people can have conversations like they did with you, or with each other, [inaudible 00:27:43] or whatever, and realize, "Shit, I don't have to take this shit. I need to make sure that I'm being respected." And you could run it by each other, and it's important. So if, I mean, if you're listening to this and you're feeling some of that stuff, I mean, hit up the slack channels, man. I mean, that's where you go. Ask those questions, throw it out there. No one's going to make fun of you. I bet nine and a half times out of 10, someone's experienced it.
Carl: Yeah. Well, and I'll say, if you don't get help at the Bureau, get help somewhere. But to your point, in these conversations that I had, it was definitely more of a supportive thing. And everybody at the end was like, "Yeah, why? This? No, I'm not going to let them just make this decision." Because it's your company. It's what you build. It's not a welcome mat for somebody else to come in and take what they want and leave. It is a place where you service and offer, and give your experience and the team you built, in exchange for something of value, probably money. And yeah, so you have to stand up for yourself.
Carl: I actually, there's a great book called the No B.S. Time Management, which I think I learned a ton from this book. For one thing, if anybody is five minutes late for a call without any kind of notice, they didn't say anything, just let them know you'll reschedule. Don't waste another five minutes waiting on them. I mean, these types of things I thought are just brilliant. I don't care if it's a bank, and you've been waiting to meet with them for a month. As soon as they aren't ready for you and you leave, they are going to call and say, "What happened?" And say, "Oh, I thought we had a meeting, but I guess you all didn't think so."
Gene: [crosstalk 00:29:20]
Carl: So yeah, but Gene, what about you? Any hot takes this week?
Gene: Hot takes, hot takes, hot snakes? No.
Carl: Maybe around that possum? See how we brought it all back.
Gene: I tried ... This is a different business. These listeners may not know, I own a gym, and we tried some different advertising.
Carl: Nice fellow.
Gene: I was so tired of the standard Facebook, Google crap. We used an app called Next Door. It is, if you're thinking about trying something new, a new advertising area, or somewhere to get involved, just look outside of the standard stuff that you've always been looking at.
Carl: Interesting.
Gene: We tried that and had instant reaction from people.
Carl: "Stop doing that," that was the instant reaction.
Gene: Yeah, [inaudible 00:30:11].
Carl: Because I always think-
Gene: No, it was great.
Carl: ... it is the way you say, "Hey, somebody's dog got out, is this your dog?" And then you say, "Hey, the gym's open this weekend. Get your butt in here."
Gene: Yeah, pretty much. Well, the way it works, is you sponsor an area. So you sponsor a zip-code area.
Carl: Oh, that's really cool.
Gene: Yeah, and so you're the sponsor of this area. And it's like, "Well we care about the area. Come to our place and check us out." And it works.
Carl: I like that.
Gene: But it isn't necessarily to sell Next Door. It's just to shake it up a little bit, look outside of the standard stuff you've always been doing. If you keep doing the same stuff you've been doing, you're going to get the same results.
Carl: Wow, Gene, that should be put in a book-
Gene: It was.
Carl: ... or on a billboard-
Gene: I stole it.
Carl: ... or behind a plane, out at the beach. That would be a long fricking trailer, really small type. Just do a barcode and we'll scan the barcode.
Gene: QR code, yeah.
Carl: Oh no. QR code's no good, do a barcode.
Gene: Oh, they're no good? Okay.
Carl: Yeah, I'll meet you at the bar code.
Gene: That's all I've got.
Carl: All right, Gene, let's get the hell out of here, man. Let's, you know what? Let's play that music for him, you're going to love that music.
Gene: All right.
Carl: All right, I'll see you next week, buddy.
