Sometimes doing something yourself is the best way to get it done, like brushing your teeth. Other times, not so much. If you struggle with being a -- what’s a nicer term for “control freak”? -- you’re not alone. It pretty much goes with the territory of being an entrepreneur. And guess what? When you're keeping control over the small stuff you aren't allowing yourself to focus where you really are the only person for the job. Planning the future of your company!
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Carl: I got a question for you, Gene.
Gene: Okay.
Carl: Are you a control freak?
Gene: Maybe.
Carl: I know the answer.
Gene: In certain aspects, yes, but in other aspects, no.
Carl: I can tell you're an interrupter. I can tell that. Gene, you are not a control freak.
Gene: Okay. Thank you.
Carl: You let just slide by and go straight to hell.
Gene: Well, I love it.
Carl: And don't do a thing about it.
Gene: Wait, wait, wait.
Carl: No, no, no, no. We're going to talk about it. I think you're a really swell fella. Let's do the show.
Gene: Good morning.
Carl: Hey, Gene.
Gene: Hey.
Carl: Oh, you poor bastard. I just remembered the whole hygiene thing from elementary school.
Gene: I'm immune to it.
Carl: Well, the kids call me Casper because I was so pale. So we'll just trade stories.
Gene: That might be worse.
Carl: It was not nice.
Gene: Pretty bad.
Carl: I was terrified to wear shorts.
Gene: Oh, my goodness.
Carl: I thought they might call me the invisible man then. Gene, control freaks.
Gene: I've known a few.
Carl: Oh, wow. That was almost like a Sinatra song.
Gene: Well, I was thinking...
Carl: Do we tolerate them? Are we them?
Gene: You are?
Carl: I don't know, man. I think I am. If you were to ask people what it was like to work with me... I remember with Engine, when we went to award shows we would dress up. We went as ninjas. We went as monks. We went as elves. We went as whatever we thought. We went dressed up as mechanics for the first one because we were Engine and I would be upset if we didn't have the right shoes.
Gene: Oh, man.
Carl: Ninja toe shoes, the whole deal. And I wanted real weapons. I went to a guy who had a martial arts store and I said, "Can we just borrow these? I promise they'll come back with no blood."
Gene: It's not how we work.
Carl: Totally clean. And he said, "Yeah."
Gene: Oh, wow.
Carl: Oh, well, yeah. I dropped him like 500 bucks.
Gene: Oh, there you go.
Carl: So there we go. But is that attention to detail or is that control freak? Is it a mindset that some of us just have?
Gene: Well, let me ask you this. Do you have those feelings about anything else other than costumes?
Carl: Yeah.
Gene: Does it cause you anxiety?
Carl: Yeah.
Gene: Okay.
Carl: It can be as simple as a word in a subject line of a newsletter and I'm just like, "I don't like that word." And it's got to drive people crazy but the newsletter this week is all around being a control freak and some of the damage it can cause and how to let go and step back. Because I mentioned this in that last episode, there's a real undercurrent right now in the community of owners who are like, "I want to step back." And I start thinking, but can you? And how do you do it? It's not like you start something and you run it for five years or two years or 20 years and then you can suddenly go, "You know what? I'm just going to let other people manage my offspring," because that's how we feel about a company we started. This is a tough one for me.
Gene: I have never. So let's set some definitions. I don't know what you're coming out with the newsletter, what the deal with it is, but I think there's a difference between caring about the outcome of something to where you step in, especially if it's something that's a big deal to you or being a micromanager.
Carl: [crosstalk 00:04:31] the same. I don't think so.
Gene: I think it can get confused between the two. If something not being right gives you anxiety, that can just simply mean that you care. You care about the outcome, you care about the people impacted by the outcome, whatever. And I'm thinking of this from an owner's standpoint, but there's a fine line between that and micromanaging people.
Carl: Let's go with this. So some of the research I was looking at in the... First of all, if you're watching this, I evidently have hair from the musical Grease and I'm not sure what's going on, I need a leather of the jacket.
Gene: I like the almost Ace Ventura thing going on.
Carl: I do, I just need to [crosstalk 00:05:24] out of an elephant butt, that would be fine. And it wasn't [crosstalk 00:05:28] I was going to say I knew somebody would get upset.
Gene: It's a rhinoceros.
Carl: There you go. So if I were to say a control freak, what is the underlying conditions of somebody who's a control freak, and control freaks are going to want to redefine this by the way, just get ready for that, I would first say there's some underlying sense of fear.
Gene: Oh yeah.
Carl: It's definitely fear based. And I think for me personally, that's because I have a huge fear of failure. And if I am in control of everything, then at least I know where I think the demons are hiding and I can try to get through that, but if somebody else does, what if they don't know? That to me I think the fear is definitely the underlying thing. You think so?
Gene: Yeah. I think part of it, yes. If you're having problems, if there's something like you have a shortfall of cash or if there's some kind of project going off the rails or whatever, and you begin to insert yourself or insert your control over the team or the project or whatever, yeah. When we were putting on events, I was very much early on the planning I was just doing all of it. And it wasn't because I didn't trust the people we were working with. We were literally paying a company to work with us, but I wanted to control all the details because it's a lot of cash, so that's a big investment in an event up front and I wanted to make sure it was going to work because I didn't want to flush my money down the toilet. So, yeah, definitely fear based.
Carl: So fear based and then anxiety. You mentioned anxiety. I think anxiety's a big part of it.
Gene: Yeah, the fear can cause the anxiety.
Carl: Even my kids have picked up on some of this with me. One of the things I think is when you're a control freak, you have a vision of how something is supposed to be. And it could be that you have really high standards and you think nobody's going to be able to get these standards or could be you've got an amazing idea of how it needs to be and you aren't communicating it correctly or you're holding onto it and then people by nature, you're setting it up so that you can take everything back. And I know I've done that. Most of what I know about events I learned from you, I learned from Dan Denny.
Gene: Too bad.
Carl: I learned from going to places like Sotheby's or things like that, and just picking up on that. Going to theme parks have been a huge influence. So I do have this vision of how I want it to come out. And I will say, I am lucky Lori never quit it or Greg never punched me because there were times where something would go wrong that was nobody's fault, but I was so anxious about it, I wanted it to be because I didn't manage it. And it could be that a bus had a funky smell on it. That happened once. You're going for all I know that was somebody's eight old lasagna and they're sitting in the back trying to get through it. You have no idea what's going to bring a bad smell onto a bus. And you can't then just suddenly be, oh, well we should never have hired this bus company. You can't blame people for things that are out of everybody's control, but as a control freak it makes you want to bring things back in.
Gene: But you have owned it. You're owning it, you're seeing it and you're trying to head it off. You know it's happening and it's up to you to how much you give into it.
Carl: Yeah. Totally.
Gene: And I could see that. I can see that in you sometimes where you're like, "I have this feelings." Because you'll tell me some shit that you won't tell everyone else when you be like, "Uh." And I'm like, "It's cool." And I could see you working on it. So I think that's awesome. You've got to generate your sense of quality and desire for quality from somewhere, I think. As a creator, as a leader, as a business owner, it's got to come from somewhere.
Carl: And are you doing it for the betterment of the project or the event or the thing? And if so, that's way different from doing it out of that sense of fear or...
Gene: Or a narcissist dependency.
Carl: Or a big ego. And I acknowledge, a lot of people think that I'm so wonderful, and it's true, I'm amazing. But I definitely have an ego. I mean, and it's, it's big. I have a feeling for what I want the bureau to be. I have a sense for what I want [inaudible 00:10:50] to be. I have a sense for all these things. But I think two things woke me up. One was this happened at Engine, and as soon as I... The house fire story, and then I ended up not being... Realizing, oh, I need to step back. I need to [crosstalk 00:11:08] in charge, being important is a detriment to the company. And I think at the bureau, because of COVID, Lori and I were doing everything, Brett was offering to help, Brett comes in and helps some, and now is getting more involved because then when my mom got sick I had to bail.
Carl: Made this big list of everything I do. People are grabbing different aspects of it. Ambassadors, everybody else. And now I'm at this point, my mom's going home today, so thank God. And obviously that drama's not over. She's old. Sum it up, she's old, she's almost 90.
Gene: It's what people do.
Carl: It's what people do. This is that phase, but I'm not going to storm in and take everything back over. You know why? Because it went fine. And I think that's the thing, being in control makes you feel important. Being important can feed your ego and you defend that. When other people come in, they do good things, you can defend that. But I think that the most important thing to focus on is the detriment you are bringing to your company and your team if that word is being used appropriately.
Gene: Yeah. I think so.
Carl: Because when you get to that importance bottleneck, when you get to that control freak, you've got to come through this pass to get anywhere, your company can't grow, can't grow anymore. You could look at Steve Jobs and you could say, "Well, I don't know, dude was pretty much a control freak." He told people no a bunch and he did get kicked out at one point.
Gene: Well, I never worked for Steve jobs, but I never...
Carl: Did Steve jobs ever work for you though?
Gene: My iPhone's acting up. Where was I going with that? You threw me off track. Yeah, he's the classic narcissistic, egocentric leader, right?
Carl: Yeah.
Gene: But it's hard to argue with the creative output of him being in control. I've read extensively about him. I'm a pretty big fan. I never read anything about him doing the typical narcissistic micromanager things. He never wanted constant updates and just got all involved in how a guy was laying out a microchip or whatever, but it was the bigger picture things where it's like, "Why are you doing it that way?" And the person would be like, "Well, it's because it's how we've always done it." And he's like, "You're fired. That's dumb." So I don't know if the reaction was quite on the level that it should have been, but let's talk about that for a second.
Carl: I think there's something to dig into there.
Gene: You mentioned ego, ego's not always bad. We throw it around a lot, ego is a bad thing, and I think an ego... And I've used the word three times and I hate the word, but if you have this ego and it's to feed your narcissism, to feed your ability to feel better and that's the sole reason why it's there, yeah, that's bad. But ego also makes us take on big projects. Ego is also what makes you do the bureau because you feel like you can do it.
Carl: Ego and confidence. If you've done something before and had success, that builds confidence, confidence isn't necessarily ego.
Gene: That's right. [crosstalk 00:15:07] I think it's the same bucket, you're pulling out of the same bucket, but you mentioned it earlier it's the result, it's the why you're doing it. If you're doing it for the betterment of the project or the betterment of the team, and that's real and you can honestly ask that question and say yes, it's hard to argue with you sticking your nose into a project and being like, "Well, why is it like this?"
Carl: But there's a difference between controlling everything and just giving assignments and asking people to defend their position on why they did something. And even say defend, present your case to me why this is better. If you're a control freak, you're probably not going to listen [crosstalk 00:15:57] If you are trying to do what is best for the organization [crosstalk 00:16:02] the team, what is best for everybody and they've got a strong point, then you're going to listen. I don't know [inaudible 00:16:08] Jobs, reading the Isaacson book, I think that's the majority of what I know about him. It sounded like he was a very advanced control freak who didn't care about the details because he was controlling the big picture. Very unique individual. I don't think we can replicate that.
Gene: No.
Carl: But to that point, if you can identify yourself as a control freak, which I think is in itself difficult, but if you're doing it, if you really look at it and the reason you're telling everybody exactly what to do is you can say, "I read the EMATH and they said to make sure it's replicatable."
Gene: I'm not going to try.
Carl: But if it's out of fear, if you think you're the only one who knows how, if it's because you don't trust anybody, if that's the cause, then you're stuck in time. You're a little mosquito in that amethyst. What? No. What would...
Gene: Amber.
Carl: Amber, thank you.
Gene: Damn, you in the movies today.
Carl: I don't know what's going on. I just [crosstalk 00:17:21]
Gene: the next two weeks watching 80s movies.
Carl: I just want to go home. And so I think part of it is we have to acknowledge our ego. We have to address our ego. I'm not saying ego is bad. I'm saying there are parts of ego. If ego prevents you from doing something or hearing somebody, that's a challenge. But ego, I don't know, man, this is a whole nother episode...
Gene: It kind of is.
Carl: About figuring out ego. But I think confidence, you don't want to lose your confidence. And that's one of the things I do. I feel like I can either be completely controlling all of this or I just have to step all the way back. That has happened to me a lot in my life. But I think that you have to learn how to be able to engage and share the experiences that you have and the things that are going to make the project or the company or the team better with being okay.
Carl: Being okay if people reject that with a rationale, with a strong rationale that you can agree to. But for me, this whole process, and I think this is also some stuff that you can find online, but you got to let go. And maybe start small. Maybe don't pick the movie that your family wants to go see that night. Or maybe it's just go for a walk in a random direction and don't have a plan for what you're going to see on the walk. Little things. Maybe it's just this little stuff.
Gene: Are those things problems for you?
Carl: Not really.
Gene: Okay. Well, cool. See, you're making progress.
Carl: I'm making progress. There are movies I don't want to see and I'm not going to go see.
Gene: Of course.
Carl: That's the thing, it's not like you say, "Oh, well, yeah, let's go see Ouija Board seven. I'm back in the movies." And they've only made four. Don't come at me. Ouija Board tonight. But I don't have that problem, if I want to be with the people, I want to be with the people. If there's something going on that I don't want to be a part of, I just [inaudible 00:19:30]. That's part of being older, I think, because you're just like, "Yeah, I've got so much time left and I'm not going to waste it going here."
Gene: Yeah. There's a lot there from your spectrum of life. Early on in life, we tend to do things based on what we want people to notice and what we want people to see. [crosstalk 00:19:53]
Carl: Trying to get recognition.
Gene: And as you get older, you realize they're not looking at you. They don't even know you're there.
Carl: No. They're not. If we can acknowledge that we can't control everything. If you were ask to somebody, "Can you control everything?" They'd be like, "No." Okay, then just take that with you. in every situation. And it gets back to... I'm blocking on the author's name now, but that concept of your sphere of influence, don't try to affect things that are outside of your ability to impact. You may be able to make a small difference in climate change by recycling in your local town. You can maybe make a difference. You can get in. You can talk to the city council or something like that. But you're never going to stop the ocean from getting warmer.
Carl: It's not just you. So I think we have to acknowledge that we can't do everything. And, again, it's start small. Being a control freak is a little bit of an addiction. You have to give it up a little bit at a time and trust those people that you've surrounded yourself with. And you may have to hire new people. It may you've been managing... The one that I think owners are the slowest to let go of is bookkeeping.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: They may have somebody who's doing the balancing and they may have somebody who's doing the taxes and stuff, but they want to send the invoices.
Gene: Wow. That's true.
Carl: Am I wrong?
Gene: No.
Carl: I think that's a huge one. And I think also probably payroll. I think they get worried about somebody seeing what they make or they're like, "Who am I going to trust that's going to be able to do this when I say I need to take a draw or I need to get a raise?" I think that's a thing. It's a big challenge. But if you're going to give yourself a break, because being a control freak is detrimental to your mental health and your physical health, causes a shit ton of stress on you and other people, it's going to hurt your relationships. I think we're going into a hot take, Gene. I just felt it.
Gene: It feels a little warm.
Carl: Gene, ready for a hot take?
Gene: I've been ready.
Carl: Well, as a control freak, you know I'm ready. All right, kids, stop hurting yourself. Stop hurting your team. You don't have to be in control of everything. Trust the people that you've hired. You are hurting relationships if you don't. You are hurting your mental and your physical health if you don't. And you're hurting your future. Because if you can't let go of sending out the invoices, how the hell are you going to decide the direction of the company 10 years from now? Because you're in the weeds. So stand up, step back and take a look at the big picture and trust the people that you've hired to take care of the things they know how to do.
Gene: Boom. That was good.
Carl: Thanks man. I feel pretty good about it.
Gene: It's pulled the pin on that one.
Carl: That sounds like something's going to explode.
Gene: The [inaudible 00:23:13] a little bit. You probably just called some people out.
Carl: I did. Well, I was looking at myself the whole time I was saying it.All right, Gene.
Gene: All right, man, until next time.
Carl: Until we meet again. Sayonara, sister.
