There are things I believe in very strongly when it comes to managing clients: We have to establish and maintain trust. We have to actively listen and confirm what we heard. We need to make sure bad news travels at the same speed as good news. But should we focus on client happiness? I think it can lead to some big problems, honestly. But happy clients bring huge benefits. And since International Happiness Day is just around the corner, let's dig into this!
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Carl: Whoa. It's the wacky, wacky Bureau Briefing.
Gene: We should totally get the two guys on the radio. Like, I'm Abe and he's the Caveman. [inaudible 00:00:47].
Carl: Man, that's cool [crosstalk 00:00:51]
Gene: Close.
Carl: That was my last-
Gene: We don't know what cavemen did. They could have howled.
Carl: You know what? I should have just got up and started scrawling on the walls.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: That would've worked.
Gene: Like started painting. That was weirdly accurate.
Carl: I need to share one thing before we move forward.
Gene: Okay.
Carl: It's not the thing I just shared with you about the whole friendship with Gatorade and the Miralax and-
Gene: Let's not share that with everybody.
Carl: Not that.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: Not going to share that. International Happiness Day is coming up.
Gene: When is it?
Carl: Every day.
Gene: Oh.
Carl: I don't know.
Gene: Touche.
Carl: I'm going to take a quick look. I want to say, what day of the week should International Happiness Day be?
Gene: Friday.
Carl: Okay. I could see Friday, but Friday you're still under thumb of the man. Saturday, I think should be the day.
Gene: Okay, all right. I'll give you that.
Carl: Because Sunday you're worried about stuff or you've got the pressure of the universe. God.
Gene: I'll give you that. When is International Happiness Day.
Carl: It is March 20th. It's a Sunday. It's March 20th every year.
Gene: Well, then it's not a Sunday every year.
Carl: No, it may have just started. Maybe that explains a lot about the world.
Gene: Yeah, yeah.
Carl: We just started it. I mean, there's an international day of everything, right?
Gene: Well, yeah.
Carl: I mean, it's annoying, right?
Gene: Pretty much.
Carl: I mean, it's like put a peanut in an avocado day. It's like [inaudible 00:02:38] pretty good.
Gene: I really hope that's a day.
Carl: I hope that's a day. I got into this conversation with somebody. I didn't get into it, but into this conversation with somebody a while back, somebody I really like who told me that happiness was their goal. I don't know how I feel about that.
Gene: I don't either. I kind of feel bad because they're not already happy.
Carl: Oh, see, you're just a dreamer. Gene, did I mention I've been fasting for two days?
Gene: Why the sour and mood.
Carl: No, no, no. I'm just thinking this could be really weird. I may not even remember this. I may be going on fumes. You know what I'm saying? Well, here's the thing to me about when he said that I did, I was kind of like, "Why would you want happiness to be a goal or joy? Or any of those things as a goal?" I can appreciate you want to be in that state. I would rather be in a state of happiness than a state of distress, right? Or I would rather be experiencing joy than experiencing pain.
Gene: Well, that also assumes that happiness is a constant state that you achieve.
Carl: But is it a goal? Is that the state you want to achieve?
Gene: Being happy? Sure. But I don't think you like, "Hey, I've attained happiness forever." Done.
Carl: Sadness drop. Have a mic drop. That didn't work at all.
Gene: Sadness.
Carl: Tell me a time or two, when you were at your happiest. What do you think was one of the happiest times in your life?
Gene: What are you asking me? Like a timeframe?
Carl: Overcome with happiness. Something happened or it could be something happened to you, to somebody else, whatever. But it's just that moment where you're just like, "Oh my God, I'm so happy right now." Right? Mine just happened just noon.
Gene: Oh, because we started the podcast?
Carl: I'm so excited, yeah.
Gene: I don't know how to answer that question, man.
Carl: [inaudible 00:04:48] one kid and that's just...
Gene: No, that's cliche, man. When we had our kids and I was like, "There's the kid." It wasn't like-
Carl: You were like, "There's the kid."
Gene: It wasn't like, [crosstalk 00:05:01] happiest moment in my life it was like, "What the fuck do I do next?" Was more of the like, "Oh shit." Yes, happy. But also, like holy cow. I mean that's not... I don't think you're being honest with yourself with stuff like that. I mean, I don't know.
Carl: Yeah. That's playing to the crowd.
Gene: Yeah, I don't know, man. I mean-
Carl: There was this moment whenever I freaked out that we wouldn't have enough money, and the house wasn't big enough, and that-
Gene: Yeah. I mean, you want to talk about happy times, it's generally when- [inaudible 00:05:33]
Carl: Okay, go ahead.
Gene: When, hey, we've got a few projects, they're going well, business is doing okay, we're making some money, relationships at home are fine. And it's a nice point in time where you can just enjoy some things. Or you hit that level and you go on a trip with your family and it's a good one. That's when I'm happy. It's a-
Carl: Is that happiness or is that being content?
Gene: I'm not sure I can-
Carl: I'm not either, [crosstalk 00:06:04]
Gene: Between the two, yeah.
Carl: And honestly I think being content is a pretty good goal.
Gene: Yes.
Carl: Being happy with how things are. I think the challenge becomes-
Gene: Oh, I see where you're going.
Carl: Yeah, if happiness is your goal, it feels like you're never going to achieve it more than for moments at a time.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: And you could achieve it at somebody else's expense. I mean, if you're thinking about happiness versus thinking about everything being okay-
Gene: Right, right.
Carl: Then you may hurt somebody to achieve your happiness, right? I mean, it's almost like if money is your goal-
Gene: Oh, right.
Carl: That's when evil starts to kick in, right? Because then you're like, "I want money, and the only way that it ends is at the expense of someone else." Generally, if that is your goal, I mean, you're going to get to a certain point where you achieve financial freedom, success, all that kind of stuff. But if you keep that as your focus, then the only option you're going to have eventually is to find somebody else's.
Gene: More, and more, and more. Oh, yeah.
Carl: Right? Happiness isn't necessarily like that, but what you just said about being content, but what is a time? Let's not... I don't want to let you get away from this. I have seen you very happy before. Normally, it's right after I leave and I peek through the window, but when's the last time you just bust out smiling, you couldn't stop smiling, you just felt so good?
Gene: You want something specific. We did a-
Carl: I just want to know that you were happy once in your fucking life. For God's sakes, man.
Gene: I think most often it's after a really good class. We had a full class, like 10 to 12 people and it went really well. And I felt like everybody was picking up what we were teaching. It was just... And then you're done, and you just feel full. It's a good feeling. A lot of times after a successful conference, you're just happy. You're like, "Yeah, everybody was... They liked it and no one got hurt. No one did anything weird." It just like, "That went off pretty well."
Carl: Wasn't Thunders hotel room for [inaudible 00:08:22]
Gene: Yeah. Well, you did say you might hurt someone else in the process.
Carl: It's true. So, you're talking about something that could happen repeatedly.
Gene: Yeah. And I don't think I could pinpoint it to one specific time. I think that [crosstalk 00:08:40] more than once and I think I can do that.
Carl: You are Winnie the fucking Pooh man.
Gene: Maybe.
Carl: And I'm just dropping the Fs because I haven't eaten in two days folks.
Gene: It's okay. Forgiven.
Carl: Yeah, right? No, it's... I like that, that brings you happiness that you for me. Thanks for asking.
Gene: Nice segue.
Carl: I have had moments. Like I laugh all the time, right? I laugh inappropriately. I laugh when there's nobody else around. I really do. There's just things that strike me as funny. And if I know nobody's around and I can laugh with nobody passing judgment on what the fuck is wrong I will just sometimes laugh. There used to be a guy when I was in college, we called him Tom Thumb. He was this tiny little dude. It wasn't a midget. We weren't making fun of people.
Gene: You can't say that word.
Carl: He wasn't.
Gene: I know.
Carl: Whatever. Okay. He was Tom Thumb. And we were convinced that he was super on drugs because he would sit out front on his little porch and he would just laugh. He would just... And now I'm starting to realize, oh, shit I'm Tom Thumb I mean that I laugh sometimes. But in terms of the last time, I was really happy. It was when my mom was in the ER and this sounds really weird, right? But my mom was in the hospital from Dec... I had to do this for the insurance companies from December 10th until February 1st. She was either in the hospital or the rehab. That was a long time, right?
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: And so she ends up in the hospital. This is probably four or five weeks in of her six or seven week trip, however long that is. So she's been in there for a while. She's going back in, we're going to do a cat scan. I get there to see her and we're talking and she's telling me that I don't need to stay the night that she... And I'm like, "Thank God." And I was happy and I left. No, but she tell me all those things. I'm just looking at her. I'm just worried about her, right?
Gene: Right.
Carl: And somebody you care about. And you're really worried. And then she said to me, right? This 89 year old woman goes, "I'm a big girl." Which strike me as funny. And I'm like, "Okay." And she goes, "You go home and throw the dog and be with your family." And then she stopped and she goes, "Did I just say, throw the dog?" And I busted out laughing. I was like, "Yeah, you said you can throw the damn dog." And she started laughing. And the two of us were crying. I mean, we got to that point of laughing that we were crying. And I don't know how long it lasted, but it felt like it lasted for a year.
Carl: I mean, it felt like we were just in this point of all this other pain, all this other misery, all of her trip, all of these things, I felt like at that moment, we achieved a different state together, right? And going through that with somebody who pretty much raised you did raise you, right? Okay, fine. She was gone from 8:00 AM day to PM, whatever. That's fine. I'm sure somebody raised me. I don't want to hold any grudges for that. But we hit this moment and everything felt like it didn't matter. Like all of these pressures in the world, all of these concerns, we have all of these things that's happening tomorrow. Better get ready today. All of that worrying about the future. It just went away and we were just laughing.
Gene: That's great.
Carl: Kind of crazy laughing about her saying, you need to go home and throw the dog and be with your family. It still gets me. Occasionally. I will send her a gift of somebody throwing a dog.
Gene: Put a dog.
Carl: They aren't really great. I don't recommend this. I don't recommend you search for them. But that was a time where I found myself to be just amazingly happy.
Gene: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carl: Obviously it wouldn't be a goal to get in that situation or that environment. And it just happened spontaneously. Now when you were talking about contentment, I think being content... Like I say it all the time now my goal is to be stable.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: And stable to me gives me moments of happiness.
Gene: Right, right.
Carl: Right. So, it's a weird thing. But the international day of being content that doesn't quite work.
Gene: Yeah. We use the word happy.
Carl: But think about it that way. The way I just described what I went through. When is the time... Now that was also immense relief, right? Nothing changed though. Everything in our situation was exactly the same. We just had a breakthrough, but when was a time with you and your family or you and a good friend or something like that you just had that you just fell out laughing. Come on, Gene-
Gene: Fell out laughing?
Carl: Yeah.
Gene: I don't remember. I don't know of laughing. I don't know.
Carl: God, man.
Gene: I don't have anything that tops what you have.
Carl: Well, no, [crosstalk 00:13:48] through.
Gene: I don't know about laughing, but I'll tell you. There's a difference, but happy and content, right? I see where you're going. I don't know, man. I could think of one moment off the top of my head where I did feel truly happy it was after my 2nd Degree Black Belt test, it was, we spent 72 hours doing all kinds of crazy shit in the mountains. It's a 26 mile hike. I was under a freezing waterfall doing all that stuff. And then, so my teacher brought us back to the dojo here in West Columbia. The mountains are about three hours away.
Carl: Right.
Gene: Brought us back, had us sit in the back room for a couple of hours to just come down and meditate and relax or whatever before we were going to come back out on the floor and he was going to let us know whether we passed the weekend or not. And he called me out to the door and I walked out and then, and I saw my family. I saw the wife and kids and I saw a couple of my students and some other people I knew he had arranged them last minute to come meet. And that was a moment when I saw them. It was just like, that feeling you have it's just like it from the top of your head down, you just get that feeling of like, oh, this is perfect.
Carl: Yeah. You accomplished a major task.
Gene: Yeah. And, they were there and didn't expect it. It was awesome. So I didn't laugh hysterically, but it was probably very similar feeling in my gut.
Carl: Yeah. Now I think that's absolutely right. Happiness is a byproduct of some other thing.
Gene: Yeah. I think that's where you're going with it. Yep.
Carl: I think so. I mean, and obviously a lot of people have studied this and done research and way more qualified, but it's not going to stop me. I remember finishing that Philadelphia Marathon or the [inaudible 00:15:47] with Gabe, it was that same thing you would accomplish a task, but that also can lead... I don't know if this happens with your Black Belt Test, but then you've got this void in your life of I had this big goal.
Gene: It's the other side of it.
Carl: Now that's gone and that can lead to depression, right? [inaudible 00:16:02] So that's another thing it's like, how do you... I think the goal it's much like... Stephen King writes about the goal is not to be creative. The goal is to create environment in which you can be creative. I think that can apply to happiness, right?
Gene: Absolutely. You have to engineer your happiness.
Carl: People talk about getting the toxicity out of their lives, right? By the way, 60 different ounces of Gatorade and some [inaudible 00:16:27] get the toxicity right out there. Sorry, hey, you didn't have to do what I did.
Gene: I have done it before.
Carl: I'll call you from the table. But if you focus on getting yourself in that environment then... Right? And, for you, it's a little different.
Gene: I would say I would go a little different environment, but it's more... You might not be able to change your environment, right? I mean, the job of changing your environment to where you're in that place could be a lot harder for you than most other people. I would say you'd want to... It's almost like you need to create a mental space, like your own internal environment, maybe it's cues or whatever it is, but you need to have a way to get into that place. And that may be like discovering what it is for you that you enjoy doing. That's conducive to get you into that space. You know what I mean? Like for you, it seems like it's running for sure. But take it on a deeper level. What's the next level for you after running to get you to that feeling? It's probably your events.
Carl: Yeah. I would actually say it's hanging out with-
Gene: The conference itself, but the people together and the picking up on the energy, it's the energy, right? So how do you get yourself there?
Carl: That's definitely part of it, but I would say actually, and running isn't necessarily the number one. It's just one I have to go. So that's a great point too. It's like if you're creating an environment or a head space or whatever, it's got to be something you can control. Now, there'll be other times where things come in, that you can take advantage of.
Gene: Right.
Carl: For example, my kids last night, my girls were watching The Boys. Okay, that was weird. The Amazon show. And so I went out, I heard them laughing, and it just made me happy, right? To hear my kids happy. Makes me happy.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: And so I went out to sit down and watch with them and they stopped laughing. So I had... Well, the show also got really serious. It went from the funny part to the other part. But-
Gene: [crosstalk 00:18:44] used to do that,
Carl: Like playing video games with Kaylee, my oldest. Yeah. We get a kick out of playing scary video games together, right? With Alyssa, it's watching anime, but the three of us do something together. Or if cat comes in and the whole family's doing something, boy that makes me feel really... I'm going to say happy. It's one of those moments where I can just be like, "Ah, this is nice."
Gene: So do you find yourself trying to put everyone in a situation where you can recreate that?
Carl: Not anymore.
Gene: Not anymore?
Carl: Yeah. I definitely tried it for a while, but eventually you realize these are just moments that are going to happen. And what makes them special is that they did happen.
Gene: Well, that you were attuned enough to pay attention, right? I think that part of the work you have to do.
Carl: I appreciate that. I think there is something about... It's real easy to try to create happiness and then get really upset at other people, even when it doesn't happen. And I think that's something that happens in our youth, right? I think that's why we drink so much when we're younger. We're like trying to create these fun moments and [inaudible 00:19:52] But somebody's going to do something goofy if we all have a few drinks and then we're just going to fall about the place. Alcohol is lazy, Gene.
Gene: It is a little.
Carl: I like lazy.
Gene: There are lots of things like that I think. And I don't want to be like dad in the conversation, but like-
Carl: Ooh, daddy.
Gene: We can wind up using lots of things in our life like that. Like a crutch to try to find that place of happiness. You mentioned, video games, that's one, I've definitely found myself is being stressed and I'm like, "I'm going to go do this." And turn my brain off or just try to be content.
Carl: Exactly. [crosstalk 00:20:31].
Gene: Works.
Carl: Brené Brown in her book, I'm going to get this wrong. I think it's Dare to Lead. She talks about numbing ourselves. Things we do to numb ourselves and normally numbing ourselves because we're trying to stop some sort of external, if it's pain or doubt or shame or whatever. And she talks about the way we do this is by binge watching things, by playing video games, by eating.
Gene: Yep. [crosstalk 00:21:02]
Carl: Drinking is a huge one, right? Drugs-
Gene: Whatever level you're on.
Carl: It's things for some people, it gets into self harm. Just anything to take your mind off of whatever the challenges are. And I don't think that's bad. As long as it doesn't become an addiction. And I think video game addiction is kind of a funny thing to me, that concept, I know it exists, but it is just one of those kind of weird ones. Obviously we're all addicted to media.
Gene: Oh, yeah.
Carl: We try not to be, we try... My favorite was, do you remember this? People used to say, "I don't watch TV." And then later they would be like, "Oh yeah. Did you see this show?" I thought you didn't watch TV. No, it was on my laptop. Seriously, you say Netflix is not TV?
Gene: My favorite line is Jules in Pulp Fiction where he is like, "Marcello's wife is in this pilot." And he's like, "Oh, I don't watch TV." He's like, "Well, you are aware, there is an invention called a television. And on this invention they have shows."
Carl: Yeah. No, I mean, yeah. Okay. So, meanwhile now the question becomes for me, can't we be happy on our own, because it always seems in my world when I go back and I look at it, all the periods where I was the happiest all the times where I felt like I was the happiest, there was somebody else involved.
Gene: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carl: Like you said, when you came back from your secondary Black Belt Test, you saw your family. That was the first thing you said you saw other people, other people saw you make this accomplishment and that gave you a sense of pride, right? That gave you a sense of joy, of accomplishment.
Gene: Yep.
Carl: With my mom and I, it was just this sense of two people in a really bad situation, laughing over a goofy mistake.
Gene: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carl: And that to me is amazing. Or hanging out with my kids, going for a run is one thing I'll say that. I don't know that I'm happy when I'm running, but I know that I'm just in a different state of focus.
Gene: Yeah. It could be.
Carl: And it lets me solve problems.
Gene: Right.
Carl: And then solving those problems obviously makes me feel content.
Gene: Yeah. The result of the action [crosstalk 00:23:24]
Carl: Man.
Gene: Yeah. It is.
Carl: Do you think this is something... I'm writing about in the newsletter should having happy clients be a goal?
Gene: It depends. I think you have to define happiness. And I think that's where this whole episode is going to end up, I think happy clients define what that means, right?
Carl: That's it, right? It's...
Gene: Because it's not the same thing as a successful result of a project, right? If you're like, "Hey client, what's the three things that you would call a success." And then you go and you hit all three and they're like, "Job well done."It doesn't necessarily mean a happy client, right?
Carl: No, it's what they expected. But when I think about happy clients... We used to do this, we would have our clients' intake forms, right? We'd ask them what kind of music they liked. We would ask them what kind of books they read, what movies they liked, that sort of stuff. And then we would try to find ways when they were in the office or when we were over there that we could give them some of that environment, right?
Carl: If we knew the music they liked, we would have it playing quietly in the background while we're going over stuff. Because we wanted them to be comfortable. We wanted them to be relaxed. Yes, it sounds manipulative. Okay, probably was. [crosstalk 00:24:43] it put them in a better state of being. And also we would always, every time somebody came in, we would yell Opah, [crosstalk 00:24:51] Opah. And it was kind of like yelling, welcome to Mos or whatever. But it was that thing that just kind of set people like, "Oh, shit I'm somewhere else." It almost felt like you're entering a different place. And I think that allowed people to relax clients, not feel that they were bringing all that mess in with them.
Gene: That's important.
Carl: But, I think what I'm trying to get to is... And you've heard me say this for clients aren't always right. But they're always important.
Gene: Right.
Carl: Without them, you were going to have much bigger problems. So, making them happy. I see the benefit of making them feel trust, right? Because if they feel trust, they're not going to second guess they're not going to come around. They're still actually insights. They'll do whatever. But to make them happy, I think is where advertising agencies went wrong.
Gene: I agree that you talk about business, but relationships too, there you cannot be responsible for someone else's happiness.
Carl: No, thank you.
Gene: You're welcome.
Carl: Not the real thank you. But no, thank you there was a gap in there. What's wrong with that you can't be responsible for somebody else's happiness.
Gene: You're not going to win that fight.
Carl: No, not even your spouse, not even your kids. You can do things to give them the opportunity, and you don't have to do things to make sure they don't achieve happiness.
Gene: Right. I mean, you can certainly make them unhappy. But to make them happy. You can't make somebody happy.
Carl: I think one of the big mistakes and I'm going to point this at being married, being a parent and it running a company. Oh, I'm going for it now. Hey, you better record this one twice.
Gene: Okay. Click double click.
Carl: Oh, you liar.
Gene: I did.
Carl: But-
Gene: I'll record it twice.
Carl: It was really important and I've totally forgotten it now.
Gene: Okay. I'm glad I recorded it.
Carl: I appreciate it. When we went for the second recording, I totally lost what it was. I was going to say. And it was really good. Are you, excited about this? What we can do if we're not careful is cause people to stay out of a state of happiness or contentment by constantly asking them, are you happy?
Gene: Oh, my God.
Carl: [inaudible 00:27:12] All day. Hey, how are you feeling? It's just like asking the client, do you like this?
Gene: Yeah. Do you like me?
Carl: That's the worst things you can do, right? Because you're keeping them from being happy because now they feel like they have to find a reason why they don't or you're reminding them of something bad that happened that they almost got over. Especially when you start looking at other people in your lives and in your life, and then you start constantly being like, "Hey, that thing that happened with the person is that okay? Is that all worked out?" Well, it was.
Gene: It was until brought it up again.
Carl: Appreciate you ripping that bandage off.
Gene: I know.
Carl: And I think that really, when it gets to clients, instead of focusing on having happy clients, I think we should focus on having clients that feel trusted.
Gene: I like that.
Carl: They could trust us.
Gene: Yeah.
Carl: If they're happy, that's a great benefit, but I don't think it can be a goal. I think it has to be a side effect of doing great work and keeping your word.
Gene: Yeah. A trust is interesting. I mean, because you made me start thinking, we started off thinking about what does it mean to be happy, but what does it mean to be in a relationship that's happy, whether it's business or interpersonal, whatever. I think trust is 75% of it.
Carl: It's paramount.
Gene: You've got to have, because if you don't have that trust at all, it's just, you can't build anything else. And unfortunately trust is built slowly by doing tons of little things right. And can be ruined by doing one little thing wrong.
Carl: Well, and that's why... I mean, if we look at so much of the communications today, especially from people we don't know, it bypass all of the establishing trust part, and dig right into, give me a 15 minute call so I can make your life better.
Gene: Yeah. You [crosstalk 00:28:57].
Carl: Who you are.
Gene: I know. Why would I do that?
Carl: Yeah. I mean, there is zero trust. There is nothing here that is going to allow me to go in there. But I really like this idea. You hit on about happiness in a relationship versus being personally happy. I think that's a [crosstalk 00:29:17] for us to dig into.
Gene: Yeah. It would be especially talking about business relationships between you and your clients. That seems kind of, I don't know, intriguing. I don't know if it's possible to achieve it, but it feels like... If I think through certain client experiences, I think I've gotten close a couple of times. But I don't know if it's ever real.
Carl: Did you ask him, was that good for you or?
Gene: No?
Carl: Was that real? Did that really? No. Well, Gene I think the time has come.
Gene: Yeah. Let's get into that later.
Carl: For us to say goodbye. I'll be under the knife later. It's not exactly a knife.
Gene: Well, I hope it's not. You better hope it's not.
Carl: Oh, man. Folks, make sure you do preventative healthcare maintenance stuff.
Gene: Let's have you fast for four days and see what the show's like.
Carl: Oh, man. You know what I like fasting. It's fun and economical. All right, Gene. See you next time.
