While we have a lot of support, the core Bureau team is myself and Lori Averitt. When more membership money started coming in I thought maybe we should grow the team so we can do more. But once we had the results from the Better Bureau Survey I realized I was looking at it wrong. We need to focus our time on what gives Bureau members the most value vs. figuring out how to keep doing all the things at a bigger scale. So here is some of what we’re rethinking.
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Gene: All right. Why the DC shirt? Why don't you like Batman?
Carl: DC shirt because for Father's Day, my kids got me this, and Alyssa's been trying to convert me over for a while.
Gene: Okay.
Carl: But it's just a different era of DC, different era of Marvel, whatever. Marvel's now coming out with Kraven the Hunter where he's not a hunter anymore and he loves animals. Marvel may be losing their way.
Gene: That hurts my soul.
Carl: I got this shirt... hold on. I also generally hate shirts with stuff on the back.
Gene: Oh yeah. Fathers Day present.
Carl: But what don't I like about Batman? He's fine. It's just the whole, there's no way he could hold his own with Superman.
Gene: No.
Carl: In that universe, there's just no way. When they do that kind of stuff, it just annoys the crap out of me.
Gene: It is annoying.
Carl: But it's also kind of like, I don't know, I guess the Hulk and Daredevil, not that they ever went at it, but you got that kind of thing. Anyway, Gene, I haven't seen you, dude.
Gene: It's been a bit.
Carl: I sent you that text, I said, "Hey, I need to put pause on you."
Gene: On me?
Carl: I did not do that. I did not say that I did not t.ext that. I did do it right here, but however we'll edit that out. Things are changing like crazy, man, not just my lack of a haircut.
Gene: Getting a little wild.
Carl: It is. I'm going to get that taken care of later today.
Gene: Shall we roll the incredible intro footage? Oh, you should deal with that.
Carl: Did you hear that?
Gene: I did.
Carl: I don't know what that was. I thought my water cooler exploded. It didn't. So what are we doing? Is this the episode?
Gene: I think so.
Carl: I think we just go. We just go.
Gene: I think it is.
Carl: So anyway. Yeah, I shot you a note and said we need to put the podcast on hold. We put just about everything on hold, except for...
Gene: I saw that.
Carl: ... the newsletter, and that's because we're kind of changing everything up.
Gene: So what's going on? What are we changing?
Carl: I think the biggest thing is we got to this point now where we don't have to just do a whole lot of events to be sustainable. So now, being able to slow down and look at everything, I can see where the challenges are in the bureau because of the growth.
Gene: Okay.
Carl: It's grown so fast. That is a good look. You should keep that. I like it. No, we just, as we're going so fast, the foundation started showing cracks, right? It's like suddenly you've got so many more new people in a conversation that you were just in and you're talking with some people and suddenly six, seven new people show up each week. You're like, okay, having this conversation, why is that person here? Where did they come from? You could say some of it's onboarding. You do a better job of onboarding and letting people know who's coming in, but it's growing so fast, which is a wonderful problem, whatever. For some folks it's getting a little, not annoying, but just, I'd say it's losing some of the value because it doesn't feel as intimate as it once did.
Gene: I got you. Well, I guess that's what happens when you've been around for a while.
Carl: Well, yeah. 10 years. But the thing you have to realize, we did this better bureau survey asking everybody where's the most value in the community. Slack conversations was number one. New relationships, people that I meet, is number two. In person events, number three. Online events, number four. Resources, library, that kind of thing, number five. Now what I didn't realize until I was talking, we had a little, one of our bureau sessions, the first one after the survey, had some people come on and probably had about 40 people that showed up that just wanted to talk about it. One person said something was really intuitive when we went back and looked, and they said, "Yeah, I couldn't rate an in person event, because I joined during the pandemic."
Gene: Oh, wow.
Carl: So in person's going to take a hit and Slack conversations are going to go up. Then when you take a look at it and realize that we've grown over a 1000% during the pandemic, that's going to skew those numbers, which also means the old guard who's used to going to events and stuff, they're going to be like, Slack is great, but I want to see everybody.
Gene: Yeah. Does that necessarily mean that just because they joined they didn't attend an event, an in person event?
Carl: No. In fact, a lot of people did. Not in person. A lot of people have only attended the online events.
Gene: Wow. Okay.
Carl: Well, for two years, figure we've had some camps. They're not exactly the most accessible because of the cost, but also the time and the travel. We got two events coming up at the end of the year, both in Costa Rica, and they're people who want to go, but don't want to travel international. It's very popular. It sold out really quick, but those are the other things. But I think the bigger thing is, when the bureau grew, it grew organically. We have so many different types of people in the community now. If you call it the bureau of digital, which I'm actually moving away from that too, but you've got owners of web shops, you've got those that consider themselves digital agencies. You've got web, you've got search shops, marketing, you've got brokers, you've got consultants, you've got different types of people coming in, and you've got creative shops. You may have more of a traditional advertising agency that doesn't really have a digital presence. We all have the same challenges.
Carl: But when we're all in the same room, some people, their customers, their prospects are in that room, if you're a broker or consultant of certain types. That's been the fastest growing segment in the last two months.
Gene: Brokers?
Carl: Not just brokers. When I say brokers, sometimes these are just people looking to connect, not necessarily a shop to sell.
Gene: Got you. Got you.
Carl: It could be helping a shop find the work they need or they have a customer, or whatever. That's the thing that I'm working on is, how do we get everybody with the right people? Meaning, the people who have the same context they do. I also run a search and marketing firm, but at the same time had enough variety in there that it's not just the same. So for example, if you're having a financial question, you would want a financial expert to be able to help out as opposed to people just sitting there looking at each and going, "I don't know, it sucks that we all have this problem."
Carl: Which honestly, a lot of the bureau over the last four or five years has people saying it kind of sucks that we all have this problem. That's what I see as part of my responsibility now, especially as the member revenue helps calm things down so we can actually focus on what's the best thing for the community.
Gene: That's pretty cool. So you said you're getting away from bureau of digital. What does that mean?
Carl: Well, I think a big part of it is, so digital is obviously the origin of, it's where I came from in a lot of ways advertising, and then digital is how we met. It's a huge connecting point for a lot of the people currently in the community. That's not going away. Basically, and I've shared a little bit of this with you and I've shared it in the newsletters in some other places, but we're going to take the, we're rapidly going towards a thousand numbers. That was interesting. It's just not, definitely need that haircut, man. Oh my God. What is happening?
Gene: Wild. Get a little crazy.
Carl: I know, Carl gone wild, but looking at how do we break into smaller groups? So on two levels, one, how do we just get all the digital agencies in a group because they're going through the same thing? But then take, it a step further to where you have a smaller group, which we're calling bureau circles. This would be, it's going to be somewhere between 8 and 12 people that are just in your immediate group. That's the way we're going to scale intimacy, which has been a challenge that we've been dealing with for the last five years.
Carl: So to do that, and when you realize that a lot of, I've heard this from a lot of people who are in a creative industry architecture, for example, that really thought the things we were doing sounded applicable to them but they're not in digital, so they didn't want to do it. Also, it's not about trying to be all things for all people, or all businesses. It's about making sure we have a place for different types of people.
Gene: That's cool.
Carl: So, yeah, so I'm leaning towards bureau communities right now.
Gene: That's cool. Yeah, I've always thought that, we're just talking about websites. The production process for website mirrored the film industry almost to a T. I always thought that, why didn't we call ourselves producers and directors and stuff? Because you know the people from the film industry could have so much insight in the way we do things that they've dealt with a similar situation for years, and they've solved it. Of course we're reinventing everything all the time.
Carl: Well, and in fairness to us reinventing things all the time, the tools we use change all the time, the process changes all the time. I appreciate that film has that same thing going on. But then even if you look at other professional services groups, legal, financial, that sort of thing, not insurance, get them the hell out of here, but other groups who may find that do have more of a footprint or they're in slightly different verticals, they don't see it as competition. That's been an amazing thing about the bureau since day one, is nobody has really looked at it as competition that I'm going to be sharing all of my intimate secrets with.
Carl: But I think maybe those people just don't show up.
Gene: Probably not.
Carl: Because when we do have people sign up like that, we do pull them aside and I'll say, "Hey, just so you know, you're going to have to share, you're going to have to be vulnerable. You're going to have to do all these things. If that doesn't sound cool, then don't do it."
Gene: Right. Right. It's not worth it.
Carl: No, totally not worth it.
Gene: I think you're right. From day one, even from the very first event back before you took it over completely was a gentleman's agreement, a gentle person's agreement to, don't share these stories outside of the room we're in.
Carl: Yeah, I promise not to reveal anything that a reasonable person would deem sensitive or confidential.
Gene: Part of the DNA of bureau, you know?
Carl: Yeah, for sure. I think what's really interesting is now last week released the, your bureau survey. So we had the better bureau survey, which kind of just, I wanted everybody to say what are the most important things? What are the things you can't get rid of? What are the things that don't matter? We spend a ton of time on the resource library.
Gene: Where does it rank?
Carl: It's in the bottom. It's just like good news, we don't have to do it. Bad news, sorry it took two years to find out. But then when you start to look at that and realize, okay, this is what matters, then my vision for this and this, it's going to annoy some people and I get that. But I think anytime you make real change, that means that some people are going to feel like, why would you do that? I had a really good friend, a couple of really good friends ask, why are you changing things? It's going great. Really it's because I feel like I'm serving at the pleasure to the community, and if things aren't quite right, we can make them better.
Carl: This is not about the amount of money you can make on membership and sponsorship and all this kind of crap and events. For me, it's not. It's truly about how do I reconstruct this core concept and platform so that people can get back to those, just real relationships and intimacy and all the things that we got out of 2012. I'm not saying that we can recreate it in a laboratory, but just to try to, at the very least get things so that you know who's in a room is going to be a big way to go.
Carl: But the other side of this, along with pausing the podcast and some of the other marketing stuff, and this is going to sound really weird to some people, but put a hold on sponsorships and partnerships. The ones we currently have are obviously intact and we're using them. I didn't shut it down and give money back. I ain't stupid. Maybe a little. Did you see the hair? That was ridiculous. But for me, when I look at that, it's because I also don't want to be torn in two directions. This is something that's happened right up until the pandemic really, and maybe even a little bit after, where the bureau was not financially stable. It didn't have anything like the membership revenue to make it just, okay. I'm not worried like I was for four years. You would get a sponsorship for 90 grand, and you get to some smaller sponsorships in the like 20 to 50 grand range.
Carl: Anybody listening is primarily like holy crap. That sounds amazing. It was, except that I'm now beholden to them and they want information. Not all of them. Everybody that we sponsored with, with exception of a couple that we had to boot, were really great. But I am feeling like, okay, I need to get them more information about the community in a generic way, not in any kind of privacy, sensitivity way. I need to find ways for them to get value out of this. It takes me away from the community and making sure the community gets what it needs.
Gene: Definitely make you not want to change anything.
Carl: What's that?
Gene: I said it'll definitely make you not want to change anything.
Carl: Right. Exactly. Because I mean, everything's working, but you also know this about me. I have to tinker. I am one of those volatiles that when things seem fine, that's when we really get animated and ready to roll. It's all kind of a, it's weird to say it out loud. I've got so many notebooks just with things sketched out, mad scientists looking as, again, the hair.
Gene: Started with the hair.
Carl: But when I look at it, I'm not saying that sponsorship partnership won't come back. I'm just thinking it's going to be different. For a lot of people, having a variety of folks in the channels when they're trying to have the conversations can be really disrupting because they're like, oh, I don't want to say this in front of this person, this group. So it'll be interesting. I'm actually playing around with the idea of sponsored channels. So these would be like SME channels, subject matter expert channels, that sort of thing. But for now it's really about this, your bureau survey that just went out, which is telling me so much more about each individual, so I can start to find different ways to connect people who may not have known about. We have somebody in the community, who in their age and weight class, holds national lifting records.
Gene: Oh, wow.
Carl: Right. Never would've known that. But now this survey, which is going to go out to all, I mean, we're, we're rapidly getting close to a thousand members now. They're all going to have to fill this out in order to make the move to the new bureau, to the new architecture. There's some sensitive questions in there. questions that were really hard to figure out how to ask. Thank God the internet exists, because I could research how people had done it wrong as well as correctly.
Gene: Interesting.
Carl: Or at least in a better way. I don't know that there's a right or a wrong way.
Gene: Well, I mean, whatever you need to do to get to that level of personal connection.
Carl: Yeah, just for example, right, Juneteenth just happened on Sunday and the national holiday yesterday, and when I was going through, because one of the things that came out of the earlier survey was questioning where are we with the diversity initiative? We've raised some money. We haven't been able to necessarily spend that money the way we want to. We don't want it to just be scholarships because let's face facts. The reason people don't hang out with us isn't because they don't have the money. It's not like you're giving somebody something. Maybe you're lowering risk and that's cool.
Carl: But when I was asked that I was like, I really don't even know how diverse we are right now. People are coming in so fast. When you look at it, literally a big week would be 12 new members. The summer slowed things down a little bit, but it's always three to five a week.
Gene: Wow.
Carl: When you get that, you don't really take the time and we didn't have anything in the onboarding to find out, what's your ethnicity, what's your sexual orientation, what's your gender identity. These questions are really hard to ask and they're so important, especially for the non-visual diversity. So this has become, we literally took about a month putting this survey together, probably about a week for the initial draft and then a week to figure it out, make sure it felt right, and then testing it with some people and then modifying it and getting it out there.
Carl: But one of the things that was really important to me was, and remember, we're going to have almost a thousand responses on this thing, working with our research person, Nick, he was like, well you need to be able to make sure that you can actually analyze this data. But race is a construct, right? We we've all talked about that, and ethnicity in that sense of where you grew up and your culture and this sort of thing. That was the way that I went. Also, not trying to put it in a check box, but instead say, how do you describe your ethnicity? What's been really interesting is, seeing the people who come and say, well, I consider myself Danish. Now they're like going through this whole thing, whereas if we just said are you white, are you Hispanic, are you Black?
Gene: Right, it doesn't tell you anything.
Carl: Native American, whatever. This is really interesting to see, because the other thing is, [inaudible 00:20:03] is such a, just a junk drawer. It's just where you put anything that's not white and it's not cool.
Gene: Right, seems like-
Carl: That's not fair to somebody who ends up in that category. A lot of things don't apply to people just because they're not white. Like Juneteenth. I have a good friend, John, who used to be a, what do you call those things? Client. He used to be a client at engine. We had dinner a couple of weeks ago and he's Jamaican by birth, but has no Jamaican accent, pretty much American accent. He told me that he didn't know what Juneteenth was either until it became a federal holiday, because it doesn't impact him.
Gene: Right.
Carl: But if you just put John in a lineup and say, is he white or is he black? It's like this whole thing just really bugged me and I researched into it. Now the one thing, and just to be completely honest to address what Nick said and to focus on our diversity needs, our focus, we still have to have something that we're going to put in there to show the diversity. We do have one of the people who helps us out an admin is going in there, looking at it and saying, okay, white or not white. Because that's how we judge ethnic diversity or racial diversity, if you want to call it that. But then we get into gender identity and it's the same thing. I'm not going to know what these check boxes are.
Carl: In fact, one of the people who responded, responded trans masculine. I had to ask my daughter. I was like, "Alyssa, what is trans masculine?" And so then she explained it to me. I said, "Ah, okay, I got it." But if I had just put transgender, we wouldn't have gotten to that deeper understanding of how that person sees themselves, or sees themself. That's the other part of it, and then also with sexual orientation. There's not just one or two. In fact, getting back to the LGBTQIA+, well, you had sexual orientation and gender identity mixed into that. Definitely not the same thing. Who you love and who you feel you are, related maybe. But again, and I don't think this is just America. I think it's just one of those things where we're trying to understand, but we understand through categories. That's just painful.
Gene: That's what we want to do. Yep.
Carl: That was a really tough part of this whole process, was figuring out how do you ask that, how do you explain why you're asking it? And I'll say that everybody's responding to it, even though there may be... I don't think it's upsetting anybody and if it does, I'm sorry. But if my focus is going to be building a truly diverse community or set of communities, this is how I can find out. I never would've known that if some of the people in the community hadn't said, where are you? Now I know. Now we have a much better picture coming together, and honestly, we're more diverse than I thought, and that feels good. Now we're early on in getting everybody to respond, but that feels really good. Obviously that information stays private. But it does help us because we also have a special interest and I guess, hobbies and things you do for fun or to relax or whatever question, and that's going to really help drive what are new clubs? If we see that 20% of the community is way into anime or something, okay. Let's get together once a month and talk about that.
Gene: That's cool. The bigger your group gets, the harder it's going to be for you to individualize stuff. It's the nature of the beast.
Carl: That's where the ambassador program I think comes in now. We had an ambassador program, it was suggested, and I really didn't know how to frame it or what to do. I just knew we had some issues and challenges and the ambassadors were great, but they didn't have enough direction. They weren't sure where to go. But now, let's say that we do have, let's just stick with digital agencies because that's kind of the core, and we get them into their new home. Well, there's going to be an ambassador who basically just keeps eyes on things and make sure that when people need stuff, they get it, or if they see a challenge or something, that they serve it up. The ambassadors are going to get more, right? Ambassadors won't have fees. They'll be able to attend events at cost, if not free, all that sort of thing. They're going to get rewarded that way. Traditionally... traditionally, we've only done this a year or so, but mostly ambassadors didn't seem interested in compensation. It was more about giving back.
Gene: Sure. I could see that.
Carl: Which I guess is kind of what an ambassador program is in a way. I see them playing this role now, where let's say that we've got the marketing community. Well, we have people who run marketing shops that are ambassadors. Now they can be there and they can keep, just, like I say, keep an eye on it. Also, I think the other big part of this is, once we get into the smaller groups, there's still going to be connective topics and things that are going to be at a high level. There is still one main bureau where all of the communities can come in, and this is where we'll talk about health and wellness. This is where we'll talk about anti-racism. This is where we'll talk about team dynamics, things of that nature. But in the smaller communities, that's where you're going to talk about probably how the economy's impacting you, challenges you're having in hiring, things like that that need that extra lens, that extra layer, are going to be at that level.
Gene: I could see even something like hiring, that's very different for a five person company as it is for 105 person company.
Carl: Exactly.
Gene: Very different experience.
Carl: That's another one of those segmentation points is size of company. There will be a high level with all digital agencies, but there'll also be a place for shops that are 50 to 100 people to talk.
Gene: That's awesome. Yeah, because you can't tell that in a Slack avatar. I can't right click you and be like, oh, this is all the info.
Carl: Right. You will in a way going forward. I haven't figured out exactly how we're going to do this, but a big part of the your bureau survey is creating the first official member directory we've had.
Gene: Oh, wow.
Carl: A kind of directory the communities put together, that was more of a business kind of who does what, how can we connect thing. I don't know what happened to it. [inaudible 00:27:26] just decided to poop it out one day. It's gone. Also, everybody had access to editor level. It was the only way it could work.
Gene: [inaudible 00:27:37].
Carl: [inaudible 00:27:38], but there was no contact info or stuff like that. But anyway, yeah, this will be the first member directory that's going to have all this information, and obviously it's going to change over time. Most people stay with the bureau a good three to five years. It's very rare for people to flip quickly. When they do, it's because something changed in the company or their employment or whatever. There's going to be a need for them to be able to update this as well. I've got it down to a couple of choices I'm looking at right now, but then there'll be a second directory, which will be the bureau business directory. One is just going to be the individual members, the other will be the complete...
Gene: Their businesses.
Carl: ... business directory, because these things were mashed together. They need to be separated so that we can take care of people as individuals, but also give them opportunities to business.
Gene: Yeah, because they might serve different roles in the same business, too.
Carl: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Gene: Wow. So what are you doing with the in-person events?
Carl: It's a great question. Obviously they don't relate to everybody right now. Although they're doing okay, we've got the Kickstarter model, you get enough deposits, you green light. That works really well with owner events. That's not fair to say, owner [inaudible 00:29:00] struggled, but with camps, with owner camps, they sell out really fast. For others, I think what we're going to do, first of all, it's still just me and Lori. We've got support from Brett. We've got support from Katie. Obviously we've got partners like [inaudible 00:29:17] and Summit that are helping out with stuff. But in terms of the core day to day, it's me and Lori, and we can only do so much. Events in a way, also take that role of a sponsor where they take you away from necessarily what the bigger community wants.
Carl: Another thing that came up in the better bureau survey was the idea of more frequent, I'll say immediately relevant webinars and things that can be free. It wasn't that people were asking for free things. The main thing was they were looking for more events that came with membership, but that also related to things they needed that were subject matter expert driven. So for example, Google Analytics 4, GA4.
Gene: Yeah, actually, it's weird is I was thinking that.
Carl: Yeah. So that's one where I saw a lot of people having a conversation about it. Figure with ambassadors, they'll be the ones who see the conversations and serve it up. I just reached out to the community and said, "Hey, who's got experts on this?" We had like six people show up.
Gene: I'm sure, yeah.
Carl: So now, to be able to do that webinar and a panel or something and just have people show up to learn and do a Q&A, that's the kind of stuff that each individual group is going to be looking for, but for the in-person events, my plan is... hopefully Lori goes with me on this, but basically to do just one big event a year supplemented with some of the smaller camps that have been popular and shown the most value. This idea is a bureau gathering.
Gene: That's cool.
Carl: Where everyone in the community's invited. We get a feel for how many people are going to be there, and then we find the location. I'm sure we'll find the general geographic location, but then the actual venue, and we try to find a place we can just own. If we end up with 300 people, let's find some place like Paradise Point in San Diego where we at 300 are pretty much going to own the joint, and then kind of uncamp it where people have, there's a big board, or obviously online and Slack or whatever, where people can just say, "Hey, I'm going to be discussing this." We will assign a location and then we'll say, "Okay, Gene is going to be talking about working out and working, and this is going to happen at the gazebo over on [inaudible 00:31:58] Island," or whatever. I really like the idea of this place. It sounds delicious.
Gene: Sounds like you've already sold it.
Carl: But then if people want yoga in the morning or mimosas in the morning, whatever. It's just going to be that kind of a thing. It will not be overly structured, and the conversations we do have, I could still see us having a keynote or two, but it's going to be on a higher level leadership, or something like that that benefits everybody. If we continue to grow like we are, we'll be able to get some pretty high profile, really on point people to come in and talk with us about different topics.
Carl: You are muted suddenly. Have you used this before? That's all right. I was just going to keep talking anyway. So that's the idea for splitting it up.
Carl: Then I think also we'll have the opportunity at those bigger events where, if you're in a bureau circle with your 8, 10, 12 other folks, you'll have an opportunity to meet them in person too. Gene, I know you're suddenly off the air and you don't know what's going on. I read lips really well, but we're kind of at the end anyway.
Carl: So on behalf of Gene Crawford, who has somehow muted himself indefinitely, and myself, thanks everybody for listening. Hey, he's back. Lots of changes going on here at the bureau and we are wide open for input, suggestions, concerns, whatever. But I was telling Gene, I think I was telling you the other day, I just, I feel like I have a clue what to do now.
Gene: That's awesome.
Carl: Before that it was just hauling ass nonstop.
Gene: Well, it was probably 50% recovery and 50% not letting it go down the crapper because of COVID.
Carl: Yeah, I think that's a lot of it.
Gene: Man, I'm just fucking proud to know you and to have known you since... I remember at front end developer conference, I don't even remember the year. It's probably like 2017, 2018 or something like that. You were like "Yeah, we're going to roll out digital memberships." You were like, "I'm just going to do it. I don't know. I don't even know if anybody will go for it."
Carl: Then it sold so fast.
Gene: And to see it be an actual thing, it's incredible, and to actually be part of the Slack community too. It's a real thing, and like I said, I'm just proud to know you and have been there since.
Carl: Oh, thanks, man.
Gene: It's incredible.
Carl: I also want to say that over the past, probably six months, I've seen some of the old community that I was part of as Engine. I've seen people who were never part of the bureau that are sudden to join the bureau. It's weird. It's like world's colliding.
Gene: You're like I'll get them all.
Carl: Local folks, and you're seeing some folks who only knew me from Engine or whatever.
Gene: Wow.
Carl: That's a lot of fun too, but yeah, it's exciting. Everybody who is listening, the podcast will come back. We're just going to have to refocus it on what will make the most sense. Honestly, when I was doing the interview thing, we would get a thousand listens and now we're getting like 150 to 200, which that's not what it's all about. It's about me and Gene seeing each other once a week.
Gene: We're going to do that regardless.
Carl: Y'all are just lucky bystanders, maybe innocent, maybe not. That's something, are we going to go back to interviews, are we going to get into different topics? One of the challenges I have to figure out right now is, does the podcast become for members only? Does the newsletter become for members only? Because if it does, we can do a lot more. So, find out.
Gene: We'll see. You guys hold onto your butts.
Carl: Yep. Thank you, Samuel.
Gene: Yes.
Carl: All right, man.
Gene: Later everybody.
